ALS Sleepover

[rmellish]

Minimum number patient contacts is great, but should again emphasized minimum and should as well have hour(s) attached. I will refuse 24 hour clinicals at my service (yes, we do 24 also) the crews need some down time from students too.

R/r 911

Yeah, I think we had student riders every shift I worked for an entire month, gets sorta old when it's a new face every time.

 

[WolfmanHarris]

All quality programs that I am aware of fail you immediately and remove you from the program with no refund if caught sleeping during internship. If it gets slow you should be studying if all station chores are complete.

All quality programs? What a blanket statement to describe an equally broad stroke disciplinary process. If you have a student on clinical that you as an educator are trusting with patient contact and to be an active member of a crew, should you not leave them to make their own decisions about how best to use their time while on rideout.

For example, I napped between calls (as did my crew) on night shift. Some days I studied all shift, some days I kicked back and read a book or watched tv on downtime. The point is my academic performance was, and should be my responsibility.

 

[WolfmanHarris]

Yeah, I think we had student riders every shift I worked for an entire month, gets sorta old when it's a new face every time.

Students in my program were assigned a set preceptor for their entire semester of consolidation. I think that's essential to providing consistent feedback at developing the student. It also allows the student to build a trust and rapport with their crew, allowing them to function with greater independence.

 

[alphatrauma]

Interesting path, this topic has taken. I think the field rotation model needs some serious adjustment. I started this thread while on a 12hr field rotation (still here) and only responded to 2 calls in the past 10hrs... one was a refusal. This morning, when checking in for my station assignment, the Battalion Chief asked me if I was sleepy. I replied no, he says "that's too bad, because you could get plenty of it where you're going". I get placed at the slowest station in the city. I am NOT washing an engine , and I am NOT studying for 12hrs. I might as well have been sleeping, considering how productive my day has been. And don't get me started on the apparent apathy of some of these so called firemedics they allow to precept.

 

[Sasha]

On a 24 I could see allowing sleep. On a 12 dismissed, if you can not stay up 12 hours you are either coming in after to much partying or not healthy enough to be in EMS. Show up professionally dressed, well rested, ready to work.

There were students in my program who worked two jobs to go to school and had a family. Sometimes they could fit in the clinical between job 1 and job 2 with maybe 2 hours of sleep inbetween.

In a perfect world, clinicals could be done with the opprotunity to sleep a full 8 hours prior to, but it's not a perfect world. If the LT and preceptor had no problem with the student catching some sleep because they are running themselves ragged to go to school, then it should be up to them. Like Harris said, academic responsiblity lies on the student, not everyone else, to make sure the student studies.

 

[medic417]

Students in my program were assigned a set preceptor for their entire semester of consolidation. I think that's essential to providing consistent feedback at developing the student. It also allows the student to build a trust and rapport with their crew, allowing them to function with greater independence.

I would disagree. By having multiple approved preceptors you get a more well rounded educational experience. Perhaps the first few intern shifts have same but after that various preceptors so you see different styles and also get additional feedback. Each preceptor will have some thing they feel is most important and will miss other things.

 

[SurgeWSE]

I am NOT washing an engine

Why?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask students to help out with the daily station stuff or extra chores that come up. I don't get paid extra to teach an intern, feed them, or do all of the extra documentation, so it's not asking a lot to have them grab a brush or help carry out some garbage. Obviously, I'm not going to demand that someone come out and help me Ajax bay floors, wash/wax back-up apparatus, or work on large projects, but I'll certainly think more of them as a person if they do it voluntarily.

Students in my program were assigned a set preceptor for their entire semester of consolidation. I think that's essential to providing consistent feedback at developing the student. It also allows the student to build a trust and rapport with their crew, allowing them to function with greater independence.

I like that approach, but think there needs to be some vatiety. I can give much more constructive advice to students I've had 10+ times because I know of what they are capable, where they're weak, and I can follow their progress.

As for sleeping, if they're in for 24 hours, they should grab sleep when they can. I'll trade machismo for an alert student any time (plus, I'm not going to sleep until they do and I'm gonna need a nap somewhere between 0100 and 0600)

I don't like the idea of "hours" based internships, especially in a low volume area. I would be interested to know if any schools require a certain number of patient contacts, contact hours, or the like. Yes, it sucks that some people will have to ride more than others to finish the requirements, but that's the nature of the beast.

 

[ResTech]

I see no problem with 24 hour or overnight clinical shifts. I don't ever do them however. The most I do is 10hr shifts and am busy with calls the entire shift.

Do you guys do hospital clinicals as well? I haven't heard ne one mention in-hospital clinicals. We are required to do the majority of time in the ED and more field time towards the end. Of course, we are allowed to do as much field time as we like. We do ED clinicals
which is where I hooked up with this awesome RN who loved to teach and she was core in me becoming efficient with my IV and med admin skills.

If I was left to strictly field time I would have administered 75% less meds and had the same less IV sticks. And we do time in the OR, Respiratory, Phelbotomy, ICU, Peds unit, Bayview Burn Center in Baltimore, and a few other departments I cant recall off hand.

What do other Paramedic programs require for clinicals?

 

[MSDeltaFlt]

I would disagree. By having multiple approved preceptors you get a more well rounded educational experience. Perhaps the first few intern shifts have same but after that various preceptors so you see different styles and also get additional feedback. Each preceptor will have some thing they feel is most important and will miss other things.

If we're discussing Eutopia, then I would say students should rotate through preceptors on a monthly basis; no sooner. Give the preceptor and student time to adjust to each other. Different people have different teaching styles and different learning styles/needs. But, hey, this isn't a perfect world and paramedic schools don't have 6 mos to a year's worth of ride time like they should.

 

[medic417]

I see no problem with 24 hour or overnight clinical shifts. I don't ever do them however. The most I do is 10hr shifts and am busy with calls the entire shift.

Do you guys do hospital clinicals as well? I haven't heard ne one mention in-hospital clinicals. We are required to do the majority of time in the ED and more field time towards the end. Of course, we are allowed to do as much field time as we like. We do ED clinicals
which is where I hooked up with this awesome RN who loved to teach and she was core in me becoming efficient with my IV and med admin skills.

If I was left to strictly field time I would have administered 75% less meds and had the same less IV sticks. And we do time in the OR, Respiratory, Phelbotomy, ICU, Peds unit, Bayview Burn Center in Baltimore, and a few other departments I cant recall off hand.

What do other Paramedic programs require for clinicals?

Actually Sasha myself and maybe someone else mentioned briefly hospital internships.

 

[Ridryder911]

As Clinical Operations Manager, I have found students sleeping. Sent home immediately, failed their clinical for the day and notified school not to send student again; if re-occurrence again will consider cancelling contract with them. Sorry, they are representing the school and on calls both the employer and the school.

I am not responsible for their personal life. They are students, they are there to learn, monitor, participate in emergency responses. They are not there to take naps, sleep; if they want to do that then do it on their own time. Want to be hired someday, then one better participate in crew activities such as washing trucks, cleaning, etc. Yeah, things like that get noticed.


I have developed a Preceptor/Student program this week. Outlining what exactly will be expected, tolerated on both sides.

I am consulting with all the metro schools, in developing this program as we have an increase in problems with maturity of being on time, napping, not being prepared, etc. Remember, the clinical site should be considered similar to if you are working there, your professional aptitude is being watched and evaluated as well.

The Paramedic shortage is now over and I have a line of EMT's wanting to get their foot in the door. Not only is clinicals an excellent place to obtain and gain knowledge it is also a great way for employers to monitor perspective employees.

R/r 911

 

[Sasha]

the clinical site should be considered similar to if you are working there,

People who work at the clinical site get to sleep.

 

[Sasha]

Actually Sasha myself and maybe someone else mentioned briefly hospital internships.

Personally I liked hospital clinicals more than ride alongs and did as many as I could. Personally I learned more in the hospital from better educated professionals than I did on ride along clinicals.

 

[AnthonyM83]

So let me see if this is correct. Students get to sleep on their clinicals?

Los Angeles schools send their students on 24 hour shifts with their preceptors. One of the reasons is almost every single 911 provider in Los Angeles has 24 hour shifts. Part of it is preparing the student to learn in the environment he'll be working in. Can they do an assessment at 3 AM?

So, during the day, they mainly study. Whether they participate in chores or other activities is completely up to the preceptors. Some will stop them and send them back to study because that's what they're supposed to be doing. Some will let them do some chores. Some let them work out after a few shifts if there's no problem areas. 24 hours is a long time to study non-stop and starts becoming counter productive.

Of course at some of the busier stations, you hardly get the option of sleeping because of sheer call volume.

 

[AnthonyM83]

Personally I liked hospital clinicals more than ride alongs and did as many as I could. Personally I learned more in the hospital from better educated professionals than I did on ride along clinicals.

I think I was one of the few who really liked clinicals. It was great. You could get 40 patient contacts on a busy day! And you could take your time doing full assessments, family history, all the little diagnostics, percussing, etc. Like a playground. So many chances to practice your IVs and even occasional intubations. Of course now that internship has started I have to start toning it down a little...being more concise and such.

 

[alphatrauma]

Want to be hired someday, then one better participate in crew activities such as washing trucks, cleaning, etc. Yeah, things like that get noticed.
R/r 911

I have absolutely NO interest in becoming a firefighter, so I won't have a problem there.

They (firefighters) get paid a very generous amount of money to watch the grass grow, work out, watch Sports Center and eat. They can wash their own vehicles.... or better yet, get the FNG to do it.

 

[VentMedic]

I have absolutely NO interest in becoming a firefighter, so I won't have a problem there.

They (firefighters) get paid a very generous amount of money to watch the grass grow, work out, watch Sports Center and eat. They can wash their own vehicles.... or better yet, get the FNG to do it.

And EMS also stands for Earns Money Sleeping. We've had threads here where some have listed their calls for a 24 hour shift as EMT(P) and some are over worked doing 2 calls.

When was the last time you have ran into a burning building?

 

[Jon]

I did about 200 extra hours in clinical - partially because I was doing sleepover shifts. There was no ruling from my course director - I just did it.

My school allows overnight clinicals at one station that is moderatly busy and hospital based - and no one sleeps. Overnights at other stations must be approved by the course director and the station ALS coordinator - There have been allegations of a few previous class members getting a little TOO friendly with their preceptors.

One of my preceptors only works 6p-6a. I would run 6p-12m, then go home. When I came in the next shift, he'd tell me of the 3am call they had that he wanted me to be there for. He told me to start running overnight with him.

I started running overnights and caught some "good" calls. Yes - I sleep some shifts... but I also will stay up and complete paperwork immediatly.

They have a place in some situations - and I still ran more calls than many of my classmates.

 

[WolfmanHarris]

I have absolutely NO interest in becoming a firefighter, so I won't have a problem there.

They (firefighters) get paid a very generous amount of money to watch the grass grow, work out, watch Sports Center and eat. They can wash their own vehicles.... or better yet, get the FNG to do it.

Do you not have base duties where you work? At my service we are responsible for cleaning the truck at the end of each shift, weekly deep clean, keeping the crew room and garage clean, keeping our equipment stocked, etc. This is part of the job and having professional pride.

But I feel like we're digressing from the topic at hand a bit too much.

Ryder, I assume that these students taking part in clinical rotations with your service were given a clear set of expectations that precluded sleeping? That being the case, I obviously have no problem with them being sent home. My issue was whether these sorts of requirements are necessary or worthwhile in field placement program. As I stated before, I feel that an approach that treats the student as an adult and allows them to chose to study during their shift or not is more appropriate. A student who takes their education seriously will make good use of their time with or without such a requirement and one that doesn't will look for ways around regardless.

 

[alphatrauma]

And EMS also stands for Earns Money Sleeping. We've had threads here where some have listed their calls for a 24 hour shift as EMT(P) and some are over worked doing 2 calls.

That's wonderful and the answer would still be NO. Got time to Earn Money while Sleeping? Good, wake up and clean your own ****... I'm there to learn, not clean floors or wash trucks. That fratboy hazing crap is for the birds, and I won't put up with it. No station Capt or crew should ever expect it, or think badly of any student who doesn't acquiesce to it. Put me on the payroll, and that's another story. Don't want to hire me because I won't polish your station... oh well.

When was the last time you have ran into a burning building?

Funny you should ask that... because I've asked quite a few firefighters over the past several weeks the same question. Their answer is the same as mine... never.

I digress... I need to check my stocks, as I think the price of tea in China has fallen.