I actually agree with this. Hard.
I hate religion, but EMS is not about your wants or needs. It's about the pt.
Your patient asks you to pray with them
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I hate religion, but EMS is not about your wants or needs. It's about the pt.
djmedic913
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well said. we need to learn about some of the cultures that come the home the brave and the land of the FREE.
I don't know if anyone hear has ever heard of "coining" but in foreign cultures it is a normal thing to do to a child. NOT abuse, but rite of passage. we would view this is as savage and abusive. But it is their culture. Just like in some cultures your patient will never talk to you, their husband will tell you what is wrong and your patient will never speak in front of you.
yes there are lines and things like coining are dancing that line but things they have done to the chinese girls, like boxing their toes (I think that is what it is called) and sewing up their vaginas...is waaaaaaaaaaay too far over that line
Shishkabob
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Abuse is abuse is abuse. I don't give a darn what their old countries practices were, our laws are quite clear. You live in America, you go by American laws.
usafmedic45
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Wow I just lost a little respect for you. Even when I was an atheist, I never saw organized religions and their rules if you choose to participate as any different from joining a club or belonging to the professions. If you choose to believe/belong/work/etc for a given group, then you play by the rules. If not, what does it matter what they require those to do. To me it is no different than my saying I hate California EMS simply because I choose not to jump through 50 million hoops to work as a basic EMT when most states don't have those standards. I may shake my head and laugh at how ridiculous it is, but some people choose to believe that it's worth the trade-off so to each and to their own.
Why should you care or even bother paying attention to the "rules" of things you don't believe in? I'd like to hear an explanation on that one. If you can't express it better than you have thus far, I'm afraid you are risking continuing to look like a xenophobic hypocrite which I sincerely hope you are not.
Why should you care or even bother paying attention to the "rules" of things you don't believe in? I'd like to hear an explanation on that one. If you can't express it better than you have thus far, I'm afraid you are risking continuing to look like a xenophobic hypocrite which I sincerely hope you are not.
djmedic913
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who is this directed at?
usafmedic45
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Have you ever actually seen it in person? I have seen it as I know a lot of Vietnamese and Cambodian families. It sounds like you're just being intolerant since every reputable journal (JAMA for example: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/244/24/2748) that has written on the subject has described it as non-harmful. The attitude you're espousing is blamed for one of the major issues that hampers public health and integration: physician distrust because of perceived or actual misplaced criticism of clinical practices.
It's called foot binding. BTW, it's actually now illegal to do that, even in China (where it's been illegal since the 1910s). In fact, it's one of the many things that will get you executed over there.
Contrary to what you seem to believe, that cuts both ways there. If it is the land of the free and a practice isn't hurting anyone, then who are you or I to tell them they can't do it. I would seriously be quiet before you make yourself look like a racist bigot of questionable intellect.
Yes, but just because we don't agree with a practice does not make it abuse. If it is not harming the recipient, then it's not abuse even if ignorant people think it should be.
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usafmedic45
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It was directed as a response to your post:
Shishkabob
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I didn't say something was / was not harming someone.
The definition of abuse is harm. That's all I was stating with that reply.
usafmedic45
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I know....I didn't figure you were taking an "if it's not American as apple pie, it's abuse" stance. From you, I expect better.
Meursault
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If anything, I suspect you need to learn a bit more about the cultures that come to America. Foot-binding hasn't been practiced much, if at all, for quite a long time, and I doubt ever in the US. Female genital mutilation is an African problem. As other posters have pointed out, coining is not abuse.
For everyone who's interested in the effects of cultural context on medical care, I recommend Anne Fadiman's The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down. It was required reading in one of my courses; it's thought-provoking and accessible, and it includes one account of a paramedic entirely baffled by miscommunication.
usafmedic45
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Actually that is exactly the last book you need to be recommending. It spins the issue completely from the stance DJMedic is taking to the opposite of how care of the child be damned, being politically correct is the true measure of quality care. The parents were not simply exercising their beliefs but hindering the care of the patient in a way that would have gotten the kid immediately removed from their custody if they were Jehovah's witnesses, etc. I posted a review of the book on another forum I belong to:
akflightmedic
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I know we disagree in this area as we have had this discussion a time or two over the years we have known each other. I acknowledge their need to pray by remaining silent, there is no need to bow my head. I will hold their hand, I will assist them in getting other people's help if time and situation allows...however there is absolutely no need for me to bow my head as if I am of their faith. It is not my place to tend to their spiritual needs, it is my position to allow them to do what they need and facilitate it by arranging something if possible, but being a part of it is not "my lane".
If you disagree with any of that, know that I will mention all the other "small" tasks that some medical providers refuse to do based on their christian beliefs, (i.e handing out pills when it is your job, handing out pamphlets or even discussing alternative therapies for many various conditions including pregnancy, or even simply providing a referral). These are all simple tasks and part of one's job, praying has never been a part of my job nor will it ever be.
I know you may counter with those are not small tasks, but I do not want to go off too far on that tangent but I do feel it is relevant enough to mention.
I am not a militant hard *** atheist but I do have to protect my liberties as well. I will not compromise my "beliefs" for someone else to feel better, but I will as I said earlier give them the tools to do so.
I made a decision once before to be a hypocrite so to speak and Rid, I know you remember my story of the baby I baptized in the ambulance. For those new to this story as it is not one I share often, it was a needed hypocritical moment of mine based on that day and that situation and I as an atheist baptized a child I had just delivered moments before he died. The mom carried the child to term knowing it would die shortly after birth due to several genetic issues, however she did not inform me of this. The child was also breech delivery. Within minutes after delivery, the child started to decompensate and went into respiratory arrest. This was when the parents informed me of the expected outcome, with both of them there in back of the rig and both of them crying because they did not intend on an ambulance delivery (her 4th child), they asked me to baptize their child. I got the sterile water out, said a few things, they said a few things and wha lah, everything was magical and I could now tend to the mother since we were pulling up on the ramp of the ER and the OB team was there waiting to grab the child.
This was a critical life and death situation and being familiar with their beliefs, I knew it to be very important to them, this was a moment that could never be redone. I do not extend this same courtesy to all my drama codes or even run of the mill stable patients that wish for me to pray with them. As I said, they already have the direct link and they do not need me for a power source.
djmedic913
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I think there may have been a mistake in communication (or I made a typo) I was coining as an example of different cultural practices that appear to be abusive and 1st viewed thru the eyes of the intolerant American. But was trying to point out that even in this country that coining is not considered abuse. That as intolerant Americans we will jump to conclusions before finding out the truth in reference to other cultures. I was actually being tolerant, myself. or attempting to be any ways. I was in no way condemning them for this.
Thank you for the correction. I couldn't remember the true name of it. but alas, sometimes even if it is illegal does not mean it still isn't being done. But I do agree with the penalty for inflicting that torture.
Again I believe a miss communication or miss interpretation has occurred. I used the land of the free statement as a point. Since the United States of America prides itself as land of the free. that many people from many other countries still flock here to make a better life for themselves and their families. And they bring their culture with them. A culture we don't know about or understand because Americans refuse to educate themselves about anything further than the nose on their faces. I used to live in Canada and they would frequently run segments on TV asking Canadians about America (government, history, etc) and the Canadians new the answers. They would then cut to Americans being asked similar questions about Canada (And for those who are unaware Canada is a country to the north of us
:wacko and the Americans new nothing of their own neighboring country.So I hope this clears up some of the issues you had with my posting. It was not to sound or be racist in any way. just meant to point out how ignorant and intolerable Americans are and can be.
usafmedic45
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Then you need to learn to make that clearer or you'll shoot yourself in the foot again.
OK....I only said what I did because for a moment you sounded like the narcissistic "American is the only country that matters" sociopath that is my soon-to-be father-in-law. The only difference is that he's got his own little perverted form of Catholicism (he's such an extremist he's been excommunicated three times) he clings to as opposed to your atheism. I have zero tolerance for bigotry and will fight vehemently against anyone who espouses it.
djmedic913
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This I completely agree with. As for organized religion and their rules...I would have to say it is their intolerance that bothers me the most about it.
Meursault
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My understanding was that the parents were noncompliant because they didn't understand what was going on. And yes, if the issue were willful noncompliance, it would be entirely justified to remove the child from parental custody as the state tried.
Beyond the case of the Lee kid, the issues that Fadiman discusses aren't issues of "cultural sensitivity". They're issues of effective education, public health efforts, and delivery of care. The lesson is not that American medicine is bad for intruding upon other beliefs about health and illness, but that these beliefs exist, and that trying to ignore them compromises care and prevents informed consent. Beyond that, trying to deliver proper care without giving patients and family an understanding of what it entails alienates the family and risks noncompliance. These aren't issues that can be resolved in the course of acute care, and still less in the prehospital environment. It's a matter of health education and social work.
Of course, now I need to reread it.
Shishkabob
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Says the person that is anti-religion...
usafmedic45
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What's that saying about people often despise most in others what they like least about themselves?
Both religious people and atheists seem to be equally prone to intolerance of opposing viewpoints.
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djmedic913
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This is true as well...