Young EMS Personnell

[daedalus]

You can be "really involved in EMS as a profession" and not still hold the EMS associates degree. There are people here who truly want to get an education, want to be in EMS for the right reasons, and are truly dedicated to the profession. I'm wondering why, if Rid has such a poor opinion of those that frequent this site, why does he continue to do so?

But thats the thing! Rid does not have a low opinion of us! He is telling us that the majority of his colleagues tell him that they do not frequent these forums or others like them because what they perceive as ignorance rampant among its members. Rid is just telling us how it is, so that we can be given the opportunity to prove them wrong. He is here, unlike his colleagues, because he believes in teaching new generations of EMS providers what he knows.

 

[daedalus]

daedalus I don't disagree, however, a Masters degree from Harvard doesn't mean much if you don't apply it. Applying it takes more than just book reading and clinicals, it's takes repitition and doing it for years as well as building on what you've learned. I have all the respect in the world for people that make the choice to get a college degree in medical/electronics/science etc. I have nothing against them what so ever, however if your going to disrespect what is in place where I live I find that quite rude.

as for fortsmithman... I agree, let's debate, but be curtious and not be demeaning and disrespectful to us "unprofessionals"

To be honest, a Harvard educated, masters degree holding individual is a lot different from the majority of EMT-Bs.

In fact, a masters degree holding person probably does not know much about crab fishing, which takes real world expiernce and repetition. That fact, however does not make the crab fishers professionals. In fact, whether or not the master's degree holding person can do much of anything, they will be known as a professional because of their level of education.

 

[fortsmithman]

To me this is what makes a professional if you are paid you are a professional. If you are not getting paid then you are doing it as a volunteer.

 

[bmennig]

I'm curious forsmithman... Why does getting paid make you professional?

 

[CAOX3]

Professionalism has nothing to do with education.

Who are you to say a crab fisherman isnt professional or a garbage man, mailman, firemen or policemen

If it doesnt require a degree it cant be a profession?

I think people need to look up the definition of professional,

 

[daedalus]

Defintions of Professional:

"engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood"

"an athlete who plays for pay"

"Professional sports, as opposed to amateur sports, are those in which athletes receive payment for their performance"

"master: an authority qualified to teach apprentices "

"a person engaged in one of the learned professions"

Notice the use of the words: livelihood, payment, master, authority, and learned

 

[bmennig]

dont forget...

3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

personally, I think it can be looked at either way

 

[CAOX3]

Defintions of Professional:

"engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood"

"an athlete who plays for pay"

"Professional sports, as opposed to amateur sports, are those in which athletes receive payment for their performance"

"master: an authority qualified to teach apprentices "

"a person engaged in one of the learned professions"

Notice the use of the words: livelihood, payment, master, authority, and learned

It seems to lacking one key word EDUCATION.

 

[daedalus]

education is assumed in master, authority, and the word learned.

 

[CAOX3]

education is assumed in master, authority, and the word learned.

Oh I dont assume......You know what they say.

 

[daedalus]

Oh I dont assume......You know what they say.

There is a difference is an assumed guess and a logical progression of fact.

Learning and education go hand in hand. Also, to be an authority on a matter must first require education in such....

 

[CAOX3]

There is a difference is an assumed guess and a logical progression of fact.

Learning and education go hand in hand. Also, to be an authority on a matter must first require education in such....

Or experience.....

 

[Ridryder911]

Very few times do you see someone distinguish in EMS actually take part in EMS forums. Dr. Bledsoe every so often will sneak in some EMS forums, and a few known others but other than that most will not even waste their time with it.

Truthfully, when I describe my activeness with other professional peers at national and state level meetings I get questioned on why I continue or would even consider continuing? Yes, most of those that really do make the rules and laws EMS forums are usually have the opinion that EMS forums are considered a joke mainly filled with wanna be and poorly educated technicians. Yes, I am that active. I spend at least two to four hours a week either on conference calls or on Internet committee work on National topics and at least the same for local and State development. That is my job. I am a professional. Currently at this time I am reviewing page by page the new Paramedic curriculum/scope to ensure continuity for teaching. As well, reviewing at least three new Paramedic text book series that are to be released this fall covering the new scope. Remember, the new scope has no set objectives as the National wants us to mature and develop lesson plans alike other health care professionals that require formal education to teach. Do you see the trend here? Yes, they are proceeding without asking your opinion. At least I am informing you.

The reason I continue (yes,I do have thoughts to cease) I feel that it is a way to educate those entering EMS about their own profession. Just read all the b.s. and poor information that is continously dispersed on EMS forums. Rumors and speculations are wildly made without any substance and proof. Something that those in EMS are great to participate in.

We basically have two divisions of EMS. Similar to nursing. Professional and technical non-professional. Basically in comparison of professional (research, patient care, management) and then the lower level of technical care (CNA, CMA, Nursing Assistants). I at least am attempting to clarify and inform. Ensuring the reason for changes and the rationale of the development. As well, I have met peers and became friends with many.

Ironically, although we may occasionally disagree on specific topics (as professionals do)you will find those of us that have greater than 15 or even double that in years experience and that have obtained formal education often say the and repeat the same thing. This is not planned or rehearsed. For example Vent, AJ, and a few others basically have to repeat ourselves in different methods to inform most. This can range from clinical points to just the general EMS education.

When I first entered this site I was chastised harshly by many that posted because it was simply was filled by mainly volunteer and whackers. Little to no discussion was made about patient care and definitely no promotion of increasing EMS education. I have stuck through EMS forums alike some of my peers and actually see some change their education values and change within their professional activities. So the reason I stay is I see some benefits of educating per EMS forums even if it just affects just one person.

I am not against volunteer EMS when it is a necessity and necessary. Yes, there are some areas that will have to depend upon these wonderful people. I do believe however; the majority of the time that it is not the case or reason. We can review how volunteer lobbying has and continues to try to lower educational standards. How it was volunteers that promoted diluting standards and educational methods. So yes in fact, volunteers has hampered and caused problems within EMS. The same as those that do not want to promote this as a viable profession, when in fact it has been demonstrated that it can be. This has even been in areas without causing financial burden to the citizens alike other public agencies.

The topic was about youth participating in EMS activities. It is ludicrous for us to acclaim that we want to be a profession yet to promote to have children participate in the delivery of our professional care. Should we have programs to educate the youth or encourage those with interest in EMS? A definite yes! However these should without direct exposure and contact of patients. There is a reason why hospitals do not use youth for direct patient care. They recognize the potential dangers of the psyche, unknown exposures of contaminants such as MRSA, VRSA, HIV, and dangers of the unknown.

We discuss daily of the dangers of this job. Yet, we want to expose youth to this? Can you say double standards? The risks of physical assault and even the discussion of a Paramedic that was shot and killed. What if this was a junior member instead? What do you tell the family? At least the Paramedic was of age to be able to make an informed and logical decision to be there. It was not solely based upon the notion of this looks neat and I hope to do this some day ideas. It is unfortunate, but one thing that has changed is the environment we work in. It is dangerous. Albeit from bacteria, viral diseases to the crazy, insane attempting to harm or kill us. Even though they may have passed the minimal certification level does this justify us exposing them to such dangers at a great magnitude?

We keep forgetting that patients have a right to privacy. Do we really need more exposure and increasing risks of HIPAA violations? I even cringe at times with formal EMS students and I ask patients if it is alright if those students participate in their care. It is their legal and informed right to be able decide.

Alike anything else in medicine we have to weigh risks vs. benefits. At this time EMS programs are generally full. In fact there are a lot more EMT's than there are job vacancies so there is not a lacking of those wanting or desire to enter the profession and thus recruitment is not needed. Even if so, should we not be looking at those that could at least meet the minimal requirements of employment? Instead of programs maybe scholarships should be issued for those that are serious about entering into the profession.

If you gripe about the lack of money, the lack of benefits, and poor working hours, then remember why. We have not became a national standard profession as of yet. Then ask the real reason of why? There are many factors that contribute to this. Particularly those I have addressed.

R/r 911

 

[Ridryder911]

Professionalism has nothing to do with education.

Who are you to say a crab fisherman isnt professional or a garbage man, mailman, firemen or policemen

If it doesnt require a degree it cant be a profession?

I think people need to look up the definition of professional,

Actually, most texts define Professional as one that has reached its top of the profession by way of education level, financial means and expertise.

For example physicians, attorneys, engineers and most of those that require at least the minimum of a degree to enter the work force. In other words one has to have formal education and understanding to enter the work force, one cannot usually proceed higher because they have obtained that level.

Just look at the want ads.

Even nursing is considered as a profession. Why? Well we already have discussed that numerous times.

It is time we quit attempting to disguise the lack of education ever getting us to a professional level. It will never happen until we do change such; it is considered a trade. They can be active within their profession but this does not make them or their trade one. One can be paid high dollar as a crab fishermen but still are not considered a professional rather it is still a trade or vocation. One can be a Harvard graduate in research and make $20,000 a year and be considered a professional.

Sorry, did not make the rules just understand them.

R/r 911

 

[Veneficus]

a long reply to a respected antagonist. part I

Prove to me the benefits. Show me the statistics and science base evidence that having an observer of being a minor is helpful in outcomes and growth in the industry. We can easily pull up research of the detriments of exposure of high stressful events to those under the age of 21, exposure of death and dying affects to the psyche of those of the minor ages as being detrimental (even movie ratings suggest such).

The benefits? What could be more beneficial to the profession than hand crafting people from one of the most informative times in their development? You can have an army of dedicated professionals in a few generations. We both know that no study demonstrating such benefits exist.

From the education standpoint it has been demonstrated many times that early education yields better results. Look at head start programs. Programs for youth in dysfunctional families, midnight basketball and other programs designed to allow positive interaction in society. Explorer programs and the like are just that; a way to gain knowledge and have something to do other than graffiti the sound barriers.

Does it benefit the patient? There is no evidence, but you are a big proponent that experience matters. It may not benefit the patient the explorer is putting the NRB on today, but 10 years down the road, they will have seen more patients in an environment where they are tightly controlled and directed will give them the tools and experience that may help them make better decisions for their own patients.

I really could care less how they do things in Europe. European medicine has never impressed me as I have worked with residents from there. I don't live there. If I did I would protest it there as well. .

It is clear you really couldn’t care less how medicine, particularly EMS has succeeded in Europe. What could you possibly learn from a continent where a bachelor’s is required to be an ALS provider? How about a place where you can receive a doctorate in EMS? When you make statements like this, it is evident that you are trying to serve your values, not that of EMS as a whole. There are also explorer type of opportunities here. I have met physicians who have gone to work with both physician parents for as long as they could walk because there is nothing else for the parents to do but bring the kids to work. I doubt many of us will ever measure up to the level of provider they have become. Fortunately your protests are laughed at here.

If we want to compare accomplishments in EMS just exactly how many Senate and Legislative movements have you been active on? Nationally or even locally? (cut for brevity)

As for accomplishments, I have no intention of getting into a resume pissing contest here. But I stay involved both locally and internationally in EMS. I am also a part time educator. (I guess from hours I might be able to call it full time, but I think that calling my 3 months a year full time as a teacher would grossly overstate my educational involvement) I have also served on administrative committees from protocol to safety. I will spare the board any further discussion here, but there are many groups trying to advance EMS, neither of us could possibly be involved with all of them.

You described "We are no better off today as a profession than we were 20 years ago"" Exactly where were you twenty years ago? Were you working in the field then? Did you have to run out of a suburban ambulance and use monitors that had no twelve lead capability that Nationally there was only about 10,000 real Paramedics? Yeah, we used to be able to have 16 year old drive EMS units too. Guess what, they were considered too immature and inexperienced to be able to handle such..but it is okay to allow patient care? How asinine! The only way you know what occurred is by the hear say and reading of other posts. Yes, we are not as advanced as most would like and you want to know why? By those that like to talk and take no action.

Umm, I remember life pack 5s and 12 leads were not even a distant dream. Are you suggesting I am all talk and no action? Perhaps my action is trying to convince physician that change is needed rather than trying to underhandly impose my views upon others? It is a lot harder to get providers outside of EMS (which will be needed to get any real change) to take interest and action than a "hoorah how great are we EMS group."

As for evidence of PTSD, etc. I am sorry that society is so removed from the harsh realities of life that such conditions exist.(if you would like to discuss it, we could start another thread on it) I do know a fair amount of paleopathology. I also consider evidence or research provided by family value or religiously inclined groups to be more bias and less reliable than that of drug companies. All of the movie ratings and videogame ratings were not based on evidence, but on legislation of moral opinion. It sure is easy to blame something or somebody other than ourselves.

 

[Veneficus]

part II

You are spouting off things as facts when in reality they are not. Such as .."Nobody needs a registry card. Aside from spending some money every few years, it doesn't really do much"... Really, want to back up what you state? Actually there are very many states that does require to have and maintain NREMT status. So yes, there are some that do need a Registry card. Also many states license as a Paramedic is just as respected as a license for the RN, P.A. even a Physicians. Again, rhetoric that is not true. Also do you really know how much scientific research is being performed on EMS a daily basis from the NREMT? That there is more than two full time research fellows that in performing such duties. How do you think all medical professionals became in being? Look at the Osteopathic Physician's. Until about twenty years ago many would not even give them privileges to non-D.O. hospitals even though their programs were longer and had longer residency.

NREMT does research, so do a lot of people. But I am not concerned with what they are doing it on until it is published and reviewed. As for states requiring NREMT, like CA? OH? NY? FL? PA? TX? Just because some states are too poor or tiny to fulfill their duty to regulate EMS because they don’t have the money to make and verify a test, doesn’t make needing an NREMT card a requirement. Out of certifications in 7 states over my career, only one required NREMT, and the state of LA is not exactly the poster child for the best way to do things. As for DOs they were recognized as equal to MDs when the Army started using them in WWI (a little earlier than 20 years ago) I am sorry if you live in a place where unfounded bias was the norm 20 years ago or even more recently. You really think a paramedic with a degree is just as respected as an RN or MD? In my experience it is the exception not the rule. Often those medics don’t even have a degree in EMS. Yes, one of my coworkers with a phd in physiology has more respect than a certified medic? Do we really dispute why?

Your other statement of ... "since a large part of EMS is fire based, it has become nothing more than a patch".. I beg to differ. Not every state is largely comprised of Fire EMS. Review the American Ambulance Association records. Many offer EMS as a service but may not perform sole EMS duties such as transports and only provide MFR services.
I know of Police departments that have EMFR within responding units, should they be classified as EMS also?

I expect a better argument form you considering that most of the US population (more than 2/3) receives EMS service from fire based EMS. You really want to compare the “medical” interest in the total population of IFT providers?

Just because one can have limited privileges such as driving, drinking does not automatically allow one to be prepared to handle all events. Alike I described using the military as an example is a poor one. We all really know why they use the youth, it is not because of their wisdom.

Drinking and having sex are not exactly privileges extended to teenagers (aka minors) does’t mean it doesn’t happen. Look at all the BS put out by largely religious groups supporting abstinence only as effective on teen sex. I am afraid “Of Panda’s and people” doesn’t sway my opinion, nor that of any other healthcare professional I have encountered. But my point is learning how to provide medical care to people is far more beneficial to society than a night of hard partying and making babes. Do you dispute that? As for safety, I concede it is dangerous to have teenagers in a medical setting. But I disagree with proper oversight it is any more dangerous than letting them discover on their own. We both agree about the military.

Just because you want to wash your hands in making EMS a profession does not mean those of us that do take this profession serious ought to. Just because it did not immediately become as we thought it should be we should allow compromises.

It’s not that I want to wash my hands of it, I have argued long and hard for it. But we have used the same arguments which have gotten little almost no measurable results. We have tried your approach, it doesn’t seem to work. I think a longer term strategy of convincing the next generations by example is viable. Where is your evidence that doesn’t work? To do that we will need to start the education younger than an 18 year old in EMT class.
Nobody is willing to compromise in EMS. It is what got us here. Whether it is international diplomacy or medicine, somebody is eventually going to have to settle for less than all they want to make progress.

There is a reason those that are really involved in EMS as a profession don't usually bother with reading EMS forums. They consider most that posts as poorly informed participants and really a joke. Ever notice that there are just a few of us that have credentials and experience that take out time to post? Their feeling is why should they bother?

I am quickly reaching that same conclusion. Hope springs eternal I guess. But professions such as nursing, respiratory, and PAs had to accpet less than all they wanted at some point. What makes EMS so special it should be different?

Again, I state.. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

If you are not willing to compromise, let your personal values interfere with your judgment, and don’t care how other successful places are/have gone about it, then you are the problem. Just the opposite side of the scale as the patch factories. Whether it’s republican vs democrat, capitalism vs socialism, regulation vs non regulation, faith vs. science, law and anarchy. The extremes of all lead only to disaster.

 

[daedalus]

But what are you two even arguing about? You have more in common than not. about petty things like who used the the old lifepak? It's more personal than professional.... The fact is, ridryder is involved in the leadership of ems and the leadership is moving us forward, like he said, without asking

 

[Ridryder911]

But what are you two even arguing about? You have more in common than not. about petty things like who used the the old lifepak? It's more personal than professional.... The fact is, ridryder is involved in the leadership of ems and the leadership is moving us forward, like he said, without asking

I agree, this is where we will have to professionally agree to disagree.

I will however keep pursuing to discontinue such programs as I see it harmful for the the patients and profession. I will note that I e-mailed some of the few Insurance Carriers for EMS in regards to this discussion. They are very interested and posts some interesting questions themselves as who is carrying them for liability and as riders if such exemption statements are being performed and enforced?

I do hope that everyone involved does at least recognize the potential problems.

R/r 911

 

[curt]

I'll be among the first to admit that many (not all) teenagers make a habit of committing themselves to offensive degrees of stupidity, even freshly out of my teens myself. That doesn't mean that they're all dumb. There's quite a few I can think of off the top of my head that I'd sooner choose to have my back in a squeeze than some of the later adults I know, generally because I avoid hanging out with the youth I perceive to be incompetents. I suppose we're forced to look at the majority here, but it does bug me that we can't just look at how well they were trained or how well they handle themselves rather than simply saying that because they're not this age, they're total fools.

As an example, I can't get hired around my area because I'm less than a year too young to be covered by the ambulance service's vehicular insurance, despite the fact that I have a spotless driving record versus most other -OLDER- people's intentional and complete idiocy behind the wheel. My perfect record doesn't amount for a hill of beans, though, because I'm six months too young and clearly don't know what I'm doing.

Granted, most youth are more prone to blatant and painful stupidity or incompetence. It's simply unfortunate that those of us that are responsible and in control of ourselves absolutely must be painted with the same brush. I'd be quite pleased if we could take advantage of a more comprehensive system by looking at things that actually matter, such as one's driving record instead of one's age.

 

[Veneficus]

But what are you two even arguing about? You have more in common than not. about petty things like who used the the old lifepak? It's more personal than professional.... The fact is, ridryder is involved in the leadership of ems and the leadership is moving us forward, like he said, without asking

We are arguing about how to go about effecting change.

Inclusive vs. exclusive.