fortsmithman
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I knw a couple of people who joined the armed forces at 17 and guess what they're still in nearly 25 yrs later. One in infantry the other is a medic.
Young EMS Personnell
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I knw a couple of people who joined the armed forces at 17 and guess what they're still in nearly 25 yrs later. One in infantry the other is a medic.
Because as a civilian EMT, you have limited medical supervision and are expected to have some basic life experience that will enable you to hopefully make mature, sound decisions.
As a new 68W, you will have direct supervision from multiple people and they will be on you like an arab in an oil field. They will not just cut you loose to save the day. Most likely, if you are deployed to the Middle East, you will be working in a TMC (Troop Medical Center) or CSH (Combat Surgical Hospital). There, you will have little freedom of independent thought. If you are assigned to ambulance duty, you pick up and bring in, with little interventions. You won't see a individual unit position for a while, and you will never be assigned to a forward combat arms unit. So there is a world of difference.
My advice is cut back the ego a bit and keep your mind open during your time at Ft. Sam. I've seen many 68W with previous experience come into the game thinking their **** didn't stink. Don't fall into that trap, learn to be humble and enjoy the experience..................
frdude1000
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First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances". We both have certification, just you may be older than us. Age is just a number. It does not dictate ability or maturity. Second of all, EMS is not just a profession. Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t. You have never even ran a call with one of us. Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics. My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal. If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back. Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are? I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals. 
JPINFV
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You know, I wonder if the juniors realize that their overly emotional responses are just confirmations that they're wrong in the age/maturity debate.
BLSBoy
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I'm sorry, everything after
was just
I got to this line and all I can think about is turning you over my knee and giving you a spanking. It won't be the good kind of spanking either but one meant for children who haven't learned the meaning of the word respect.
Ridryder911
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Ironically, the youth do not understand why military uses such age is because they are expandable. It is a horrible fact; but truthfully they do not recruit or use them for their wisdom or maturity rather for their fitness of their body and to strictly follow orders.
I will challenge most youth to be able to make critical thinking skills. This is why they are usually placed directly under supervision or following SOP's. There is a reason why services are increasing their age limits. One of the reasons the profession is not allowing is because attitudes and inability to rationally think, such reasons and rationale area as described below:
You are a prime example of what is wrong with EMS. Yes, you! Thanks to your type this is one of the highest harmful attributes in not promoting youth within EMS. As well typical volunteer mentality of not increasing the profession as it should be. Your cert means nothing to me. You passed a first aid class ... so freakin what?
It is exactly that attitude and the inability to understand the responsibilities of true EMS providers that I and several others are attempting to remove youth programs. We are doing this by increasing insurance requirements limiting their ability to actually be involved in patient care.
There is no reason to have children providing or being exposed to patient care. Patients deserve adult care and do not need voyeurs while being cared for. We do not need to attract people into our business, we have never had a shortage of applicants to EMS programs; unfortunately rather it is not the appropriate applicants.
Whenever EMS does mature; we will see that it is a emergency medicine and children should NEVER be involved or exposed to.
R/r 911
I will challenge most youth to be able to make critical thinking skills. This is why they are usually placed directly under supervision or following SOP's. There is a reason why services are increasing their age limits. One of the reasons the profession is not allowing is because attitudes and inability to rationally think, such reasons and rationale area as described below:
First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances". We both have certification, just you may be older than us. Age is just a number. It does not dictate ability or maturity. Second of all, EMS is not just a profession. Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t. You have never even ran a call with one of us. Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics. My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal. If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back. Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are? I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.
You are a prime example of what is wrong with EMS. Yes, you! Thanks to your type this is one of the highest harmful attributes in not promoting youth within EMS. As well typical volunteer mentality of not increasing the profession as it should be. Your cert means nothing to me. You passed a first aid class ... so freakin what?
It is exactly that attitude and the inability to understand the responsibilities of true EMS providers that I and several others are attempting to remove youth programs. We are doing this by increasing insurance requirements limiting their ability to actually be involved in patient care.
There is no reason to have children providing or being exposed to patient care. Patients deserve adult care and do not need voyeurs while being cared for. We do not need to attract people into our business, we have never had a shortage of applicants to EMS programs; unfortunately rather it is not the appropriate applicants.
Whenever EMS does mature; we will see that it is a emergency medicine and children should NEVER be involved or exposed to.
R/r 911
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AJ Hidell
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If I had seen anything like that as a kid, I probably wouldn't have come into EMS. I chose EMS because it was something that adults did for a profession. If it had been presented to me as an after-school kids club, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
You deserve the certification. You just don't deserve any respect for it.
I dont agree with children being in EMS. I consider a 15 year old a child.
I also dont agree with people who should be in a role of leadership such as the previous two posters, bashing them for choosing to do something they are interested in.
There 15 years old and you blaming them for whats wrong with EMS. Unbelievable.
And someone else stating they shouldnt be respected for dedicating themselves to something even if it is a first responder class, and seeing it through to completion.
Have you read the news lately, what are most 15 year olds doing? Getting drunk, stoned, joining gangs, getting pregnant and failing out of school. I respect their motivation, even if I dont agree with their service or their parents allowing them to work.
These are the future providers, children now, adults later that will lead EMS into the next generation. You should be educating and encouraging them, not discouraging them.
I also dont agree with people who should be in a role of leadership such as the previous two posters, bashing them for choosing to do something they are interested in.
There 15 years old and you blaming them for whats wrong with EMS. Unbelievable.
And someone else stating they shouldnt be respected for dedicating themselves to something even if it is a first responder class, and seeing it through to completion.
Have you read the news lately, what are most 15 year olds doing? Getting drunk, stoned, joining gangs, getting pregnant and failing out of school. I respect their motivation, even if I dont agree with their service or their parents allowing them to work.
These are the future providers, children now, adults later that will lead EMS into the next generation. You should be educating and encouraging them, not discouraging them.
daedalus
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Cheese and rice. There is no hope for EMS after all. Looks like I will be going to PA school so that I can be among professional educated adults.
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daedalus
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First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances". We both have certification, just you may be older than us. Age is just a number. It does not dictate ability or maturity. Second of all, EMS is not just a profession. Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t. You have never even ran a call with one of us. Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics. My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal. If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back. Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are? I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.
This post sounds like my 16 year old sister arguing with my mother.
TransportJockey
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EMS should ONLY be a profession. None of this vollie BS. I am one of the youngest medic students in my class, at 21. And personally I thing that EMS should be a minimum of an AAS to be an EMT-B and a BS to be a medic. That would make you at least 20 to work in the field. I disagree with HS age kids working out in the field.First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances". We both have certification, just you may be older than us. Age is just a number. It does not dictate ability or maturity. Second of all, EMS is not just a profession. Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t. You have never even ran a call with one of us. Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics. My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal. If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back. Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are? I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.
Perhaps from once being a junior provider, I have a soft spot for them.
But being an elitist, I would say that I have given more to EMS and the fire service by the time I was 18 than many of the providers I currently see.
Life experience as a requirement for EMS? That is totally BS. A pretty big load at that. If anyone thinks that most 18 year old have life experience when they just got out of high school, either by dropping out or passing a multiple choice test, I encourage you to come have a look at some of the students I get. Even at 21 years old, I have to spend effort getting them to tuck thier shirt in and not go to a clinical looking like they are wearing a "coed naked ems" shirt trying to pick people up at the clubs.
From personal experience if I would have went in to the FD for ride time and I didn't have a properly presentable uniform, I would have been bounced at any age.
The guts and glory attitude was crushed within weeks, and study, discipline, and dedication to the profession and department were not only encouraged, but demanded. I could learn more "life experience" as well as positive values in a week in a cadet program than 99% can in 4 years of highschool and all the "extra" activities that go with it.
It is programs like these that create the type of providers we want in EMS. Who care about the profession, who know the value of education and not the quickest medic mill route. There is extreme supervision, even more than in any medic or basic class I ever taught. For years, not hours or days.
Most of US society believes that raising kids is somebody else's problem. I am old, I remember when there were communities. When neighbors helped make kids productive members of society. The idea that everyone will go to college and come out Leonardo Da Vinci, with a braod range of learning and an extreme level of critical thinking they can use is flawed.
Children are much better learners than adults. If you cannot teach a kid, you cannot teach an adult.
Mentoring early and often is what will change EMS into a profession, not simply making educational demands and raising criteria.
If you are actively campaigning against these activities, you are campaigning against EMS. Put you ego away or do the profession a favor and call it a career.
But being an elitist, I would say that I have given more to EMS and the fire service by the time I was 18 than many of the providers I currently see.
Life experience as a requirement for EMS? That is totally BS. A pretty big load at that. If anyone thinks that most 18 year old have life experience when they just got out of high school, either by dropping out or passing a multiple choice test, I encourage you to come have a look at some of the students I get. Even at 21 years old, I have to spend effort getting them to tuck thier shirt in and not go to a clinical looking like they are wearing a "coed naked ems" shirt trying to pick people up at the clubs.
From personal experience if I would have went in to the FD for ride time and I didn't have a properly presentable uniform, I would have been bounced at any age.
The guts and glory attitude was crushed within weeks, and study, discipline, and dedication to the profession and department were not only encouraged, but demanded. I could learn more "life experience" as well as positive values in a week in a cadet program than 99% can in 4 years of highschool and all the "extra" activities that go with it.
It is programs like these that create the type of providers we want in EMS. Who care about the profession, who know the value of education and not the quickest medic mill route. There is extreme supervision, even more than in any medic or basic class I ever taught. For years, not hours or days.
Most of US society believes that raising kids is somebody else's problem. I am old, I remember when there were communities. When neighbors helped make kids productive members of society. The idea that everyone will go to college and come out Leonardo Da Vinci, with a braod range of learning and an extreme level of critical thinking they can use is flawed.
Children are much better learners than adults. If you cannot teach a kid, you cannot teach an adult.
Mentoring early and often is what will change EMS into a profession, not simply making educational demands and raising criteria.
If you are actively campaigning against these activities, you are campaigning against EMS. Put you ego away or do the profession a favor and call it a career.
EMTinNEPA
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First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances". We both have certification, just you may be older than us. Age is just a number. It does not dictate ability or maturity. Second of all, EMS is not just a profession. Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t. You have never even ran a call with one of us. Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics. My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal. If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back. Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are? I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.
I know a few folks with the same cert as me or even a higher cert than me that I wouldn't let check my dog's pupils. Age is NOT just a number. It's an EMPIRICAL MEASUREMENT. No, it does not always dictate ability or maturity, but the vast majority of the time it does. I know there is a lot of volunteer EMS. Unfortunately volunteer EMS companies dropping calls left and right leads to atrocities like little old ladies lying on the floor for an hour waiting for an ambulance to even respond. THat's why I'm patiently waiting for the Act 95 on Ed Rendell's desk to get signed into law... then if a volunteer service drops a call, they get a substantial fine (maybe enough to BANKRUPT the service). Volunteer EMS is an archaic relic from yesteryear and has no place in the present or the future. This is a profession. GET OVER IT!
You have to earn your respect and prove that you're a valuable member of EMS before we will consider you worthy of respect or of value. So far all you've done is complain. We aren't putting you down to make ourselves feel higher. Hell, we aren't even putting you down! We're telling it like it is. It happens sometimes. Sometimes it hurts, even though it isn't supposed to. GET OVER IT!
Would you let a child serve as a crewmember on a lifeflight helicopter? How about a 16 year old nurse? How about a 16 year old Physician's Assistant, or a 16 year old Doctor? EMS is a medical service. The only difference is EMS is out in the world. Sorry. THis is a medical profession. Not a hobby. Not a club. Not an activity. GET OVER IT!
EMTinNEPA
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There is nothing wrong with observers or Explorers programs. What there IS something wrong with is 16 and 17 year olds thinking they can be a medical professional and a healthcare provider. Are you under 18 and have an EMT cert? Fine. You can't use it until you're 18. Learn. Study. Get education. But don't think you are the equal of somebody who does this professionally just because you have the same set of post-nominal letters.
frdude1000
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You dont understand. Im not whining. Im saying even if you dont agree with young people in ems, you still need to respect that in fact we are part of ems and we are members of EMTLIFE. How would you like it if I called you an ambulance driver that makes 25,000 a year who didn't go to college.. yada yada yada. Im pretty sure you wouldnt appreciate it. And your reasoning doesn't make sense at all. Most teens in ems dont drink, smoke, get pregnant, etc. Us in ems are devoted and responsible. And the excuse that we just "dont belong" in ems is bull crap. You arn't giving any reasons, just giving a statement/opinion. I have never been treated any lower than an adult provider by fellow providers and patients. For example, a few days ago I ran a wrist fracture and seizures, receiving compliments from the patients and adult ems providers. Most people I have talked to think it is a cool thing we do and very helpful to the community. Just think about what your saying...
Ridryder911
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Yes, there is a problem with observing. Do patients have the choice on whom gets to see them or should we be the only health profession that promotes voyerurism?
Don't understand this nonsense of why we think people have to exposed or work in the field before entering the profession? There have been and are plenty of television shows and documentaries that demonstrate at least some of our profession is. Does one really have to see Grandma not having a bowel movement or that car crash, to decide if they want to be in EMS? No.
We should protesting these programs. Yeah, I was one and even a Post advisor for almost 10 years so I do know what the program is about. Before realizing the harmful effects they may have on the youth and as well, the profession and patients.
Do the patients get ask immediately if they will allow the cadets/explorer/wanna-bees to assist or view before treatment? Do the parents recognize the possible risks of PTSD, exposure to infectious diseases and then potential liabilities?
I would wager that most families would not be in agreement to place their home up for little Johnny to play medic.
Is the EMS responsible if any injuries or exposures? For what benefit? All because someday not until 2-5 years later they may choose to enter the profession.
There is a reason they are not able to work or perform in the hospital setting.
Part of a profession is acting and demanding to be one, allowing the youth and kids to be within it only restrains and demonstrates we need to mature.
R/r911
EMTinNEPA
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"5. Learning Identity Versus Identity Diffusion (Fidelity)
During the fifth psychosocial crisis (adolescence, from about 13 or 14 to about 20) the child, now an adolescent, learns how to answer satisfactorily and happily the question of "Who am I?" But even the best - adjusted of adolescents experiences some role identity diffusion: most boys and probably most girls experiment with minor delinquency; rebellion flourishes; self - doubts flood the youngster, and so on."
- http://www.faribault.k1.mn.us/data/...nfoDocs/Ages_and_Stages_Brain_Development.pdf
"Recent research by scientists at the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) has found that the teen brain is not a finished product, but is a work in progress. Until recently most scientists believed that the major "wiring" of the brain was completed by as early as three years of age and that the brain was fully mature by the age of 10 or 12. New findings show that the greatest changes to the parts of the brain that are responsible for functions such as self-control, judgment, emotions, and organization occur between puberty and adulthood. This may help to explain certain teenage behavior that adults can find mystifying,
such as poor decision-making, recklessness, and emotional outbursts."
- http://www.actforyouth.net/documents/may02factsheetadolbraindev.pdf
"In a study aimed at identifying how and when a person's brain reaches adulthood, the scientists have learned that, anatomically, significant changes in brain structure continue after age 18."
""The brain of an 18-year-old college freshman is still far from resembling the brain of someone in their mid-twenties," says Bennett. "When do we reach adulthood? It might be much later than we traditionally think.""
- http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2006/02/06.html
How's that?
Respect is EARNED. What have you done to earn our respect?
Teens drink, smoke, and get pregnant. Do you have empirical evidence that suggests that involvement specifically with EMS decreases this behavior in teenagers?
I would point out that the morons who use the term "ambulance driver" would consider you an ambulance driver as well. And as a teenager, you probably didn't go to college. I, on the other hand, DID go to college, and I'm continuing my education come fall. And at least I make $25,000 a year. Doubt you even get paid to provide emergency medicine (and if you do, you shouldn't).
So by comparison...
Me
[ ] Not called "ambulance driver"
[x] College
[x] An income from EMS
You
[ ] Not called "ambulance driver"
[ ] College
[ ] An income from EMS
Two out of three is a lot better than none.
Nice try though.
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frdude1000
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And for emtinnepa, your wrong. Just look at the chart http://ruralhealth.hrsa.gov/pub/FrontierTable.asp. In most states, their is more volunteer than paid. It is NOT a profession for alot of caring and dedicated volunteers who put their time into saving others lives. THat is a stereotype about volunteers, and it is certainly not true about most. Their is also a stereotype that paid ems providers in private services are lazy crappers who dont care about the patient and just drive them, not actually treating them like a patient. Im not WHIning. Im simply asking that people treat the many young ems guys on this fourm with respect and like any other ems provider.
"Would you let a child serve as a crewmember on a lifeflight helicopter? How about a 16 year old nurse? How about a 16 year old Physician's Assistant, or a 16 year old Doctor? EMS is a medical service. The only difference is EMS is out in the world. Sorry. THis is a medical profession. Not a hobby. Not a club. Not an activity. GET OVER IT!"
Ok. My answer is no i wouldnt. But that is because EMT does not require the skill and educational requirements that these professions do. Anybody can be an emt. Hate to break it to you, but the skills are not hard. If you read and remember the stuff, and practice, youll know all the stuff. That is not true for these real PROFESSIONS that you listed because they are not VOLUNTEER at all.
Nice try...
And WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE TO EARN MY RESPECT?
"Would you let a child serve as a crewmember on a lifeflight helicopter? How about a 16 year old nurse? How about a 16 year old Physician's Assistant, or a 16 year old Doctor? EMS is a medical service. The only difference is EMS is out in the world. Sorry. THis is a medical profession. Not a hobby. Not a club. Not an activity. GET OVER IT!"
Ok. My answer is no i wouldnt. But that is because EMT does not require the skill and educational requirements that these professions do. Anybody can be an emt. Hate to break it to you, but the skills are not hard. If you read and remember the stuff, and practice, youll know all the stuff. That is not true for these real PROFESSIONS that you listed because they are not VOLUNTEER at all.
Nice try...
And WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE TO EARN MY RESPECT?
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EMTinNEPA
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Give it time. Volunteer services with either fade away gracefully or crash and burn. It's only a matter of time. Come talk to me in ten years.
Also, for this situation, "there" would be the proper word to use.
Then you got that stereotype by listening to volunteers. What kind of quality assurance or quality improvement do volunteer services have? Paid private services can do this because they can make such things mandatory. Peoples' livelihoods are resting on the quality of their care. With vollie services, there is no such thing.
Yes, you are.
If you think that every EMS provider treats all other EMS providers with respect then you really haven't been in this field for any length of time, have you?
And they shouldn't be volunteer because...? Oh, that's right, they're responsible for peoples' health. And LIVES. Sounds like another area of medicine I know...
Nothing. Fortunately, I can sleep just fine at night knowing that I'm competent at my PROFESSION without the validation of the respect of a child.
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