Why are Paramedics paid so little?

Tigger said:
Most of us get into this fix to make it our living, are we all doing it wrong?
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Yes.

EMS, with the exception of a few select places doesn't pay a decent wage.

I made the most in EMS working in a hospital.

When you look at the fact that many emergency agencies hire part time coupled with the amount of "advice" to volunteer for experience (lots of volunteer EMS around the US) then it is really not a widely viable career option.

I have worked tremendous OT and 3 different jobs to make a living in EMS.

I have even had to work outside fire/EMS so I could spend money on fire/EMS.

looking back, it was not a wise decision. It was based on fantasy.

Certainly I could not have done that and viably had a family.

The fact is, only a few places in the US value Emergency services enough to fund them properly. But they always talk about what heroes they are. They always support them after the immediate disaster.

But they never show them the money.
 
Veneficus said:
Yes.

EMS, with the exception of a few select places doesn't pay a decent wage.

I made the most in EMS working in a hospital.

When you look at the fact that many emergency agencies hire part time coupled with the amount of "advice" to volunteer for experience (lots of volunteer EMS around the US) then it is really not a widely viable career option.

I have worked tremendous OT and 3 different jobs to make a living in EMS.

I have even had to work outside fire/EMS so I could spend money on fire/EMS.

looking back, it was not a wise decision. It was based on fantasy.

Certainly I could not have done that and viably had a family.

The fact is, only a few places in the US value Emergency services enough to fund them properly. But they always talk about what heroes they are. They always support them after the immediate disaster.

But they never show them the money.
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Well then given all this, isn't some significant change needed? Surely it is to no one's advantage to have EMS become every provider's hobby, constantly playing second fiddle to the bacon bringing job?
 
Veneficus; said:
The fact is, only a few places in the US value Emergency services enough to fund them properly. But they always talk about what heroes they are. They always support them after the immediate disaster.

But they never show them the money.
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You are essentially describing FDNY/NYPD/NYC.

FDNY Fire and NYPD make livable wage and FDNY has the two days a week going for them but EMS does not. A firefighter and LEO makes a minimum top pay for roughly $75,000. An EMT, $44,000 and a paramedic $60,000.

There is no reason a medic should not match firefighter under the same agency. Many people are highly offended that firefighter is actually considered a promotion from paramedic or EMS Lieutenant.

All 3 agencies, Fire/EMS/PD are highly funded and we have new vehicles and new equipment but the workers rarely see a dime.
 
Tigger said:
Well then given all this, isn't some significant change needed? Surely it is to no one's advantage to have EMS become every provider's hobby, constantly playing second fiddle to the bacon bringing job?
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I agree.

I have detailed the logical steps to do that.

But we always see the same nay sayers claim they want money upfront before increasing education in order to demand an increase in reimbursement from insurance and medicare.

I and many others here have demonstrated how other healthcare providers have been successful doing exactly that.

I have even stipulated a responsible, and while not perfect, viable way to change over time instead of an abrupt mandate.

Bottom line, EMS providers both individual and organizational do not want to do what it takes to change the job (I intentionally never use the word "profession" if I can help it, because it is not) so that they and fututre providers can economically benefit.

In no vocation, profession, job, whatever, have individuals seen an increase in pay prior to increasing their own capability.

People simply don't get paid for promising to do valuable work in the future, they get paid after having done valuable work.

Could you imagine going to a job interview and stating: "I will work hard this year, but only if you agree to give me a raise next year today."

sounds awefully like "I will gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today"
 
Pay and revolving doors

I keep going back to turnover being the biggest problem to medics not getting decent pay; that people don't stay with the field long enough to invest in themselves and it as a profession.

Logically, as is being done here, much focus goes on pay and what an un-remunerative gig ambulancing is. But I believe the REASON for this has more to do with not enough people sticking around long enough to raise the standards so they get paid what they deserve.

And why don't people stick around long enough to make elevation of pay part of the elevation of the profession?

Because they burn out on the pressures of the work!

These are the human-being-like challenges; the psychological, emotional, moral, psychic and spiritual conflicts that go unresolved and build up until, one day compounded by the dismal career/economic path and the toll it all takes on your personal relationships, BOOM! You're outta there!

The systems are responding to this steady circulation of personnel rather than creating it. By not looking at it squarely and putting into place systems of support for their personnel, they are, in a sense, taking advantage of the situation and in my opinion, exploiting workers and sending walking wounded back into society.

The truth is, MOST people can't handle this work, but lots want to try.

You get so many coming in who shortly down the road (within about five years) silently admit to themselves that the pressure they're putting themselves under just ain't worth it.

(Oh, hell, this'll probably end up on my blog, too!)
 
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Say What ??

BigBad said:
Unless you find your niche specializing in teaching or emergency management or CQI you would be a fool to think you can find a street paramedic job paying 69K a year.
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I work at a service with 130 full time paramedics. A quick calculation estimates that 47 of us make over 70K a year. A handful of us make over 100K with overtime. We have a 40hr/wk schedule and excellent benefits.

We got in this position by demonstrating value to our employer - a hospital. It didn't happen over night.
 
Probably because we are known as the human taxi as oppose to a medical practitioner ... one night as a reserve I was sent to pick up an ER doc. To take him to another hospital, and being the curious Guy that I am I began asking him about the use of different medications, he was amazed that I had some medical knowledge. This made me wonder, if all docs and nurses just view us as the US postal service," we don't know the content of the envelope all we do is deliver"
 
Jack Bode said:
I work at a service with 130 full time paramedics. A quick calculation estimates that 47 of us make over 70K a year. A handful of us make over 100K with overtime. We have a 40hr/wk schedule and excellent benefits.

We got in this position by demonstrating value to our employer - a hospital. It didn't happen over night.
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FDNY base top pay without longevity bonuses is 60k. Most people clear 70 no problem as a medic. Problem is the cost of living here is outrageous.

Asclepius911 said:
Probably because we are known as the human taxi as oppose to a medical practitioner ... one night as a reserve I was sent to pick up an ER doc. To take him to another hospital, and being the curious Guy that I am I began asking him about the use of different medications, he was amazed that I had some medical knowledge. This made me wonder, if all docs and nurses just view us as the US postal service," we don't know the content of the envelope all we do is deliver"
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Because you aren't formally considered a medical practitioner. You are considered vocationally educated semi-skilled labor. A carpenter/plumber/mechanic/electrician/hair dresser ALL have more baseline education in their craft than a paramedic. Forget EMT altogether at that point.

This is one of the major problems holding us back. People actually think they are a doc in a box at 60mph. To those of you who actually believe such a ludicrous thing, YOU AREN'T!
 
I'm not saying I'm a doctor ... atleast not yet... but people are unaware what we do, and I agree with the person that posted up there that it might be because of our hours of education, our lack of requisites to enter a program, the mere fact that ems does not exist as a major and the trade is taught at a JC, however we are still medical practitioners (well paramedics , us emts are mostly transportion) we are taught how to assess and administer medication on standing orders.
 
Lol who in the right mind thinks that a medic is anything near a doctor, the treatments given in the pre-hospital field is to temporarily hold the patient till "delivered to definative care" nitro does not cure, morphine does not cure, tracheotomy does not cure either we keep them living till an actual Dr. Actually begin looking for cures, causes, diseases, biopsies, and things which is above our basic knowledge of medicine. The only issue with ems is that we are not considered a profession maybe because it lacks the approval of academia, unlike England where they have real drs. Out in the pre hospital field now that is different
 
NYMedic828 said:
This is one of the major problems holding us back. People actually think they are a doc in a box at 60mph. To those of you who actually believe such a ludicrous thing, YOU AREN'T!
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Why is this a bad thing? Based on that description, I would think the public would think that we are very valuable, and would pay would equal that. But that's not the case now is it?
 
DrParasite said:
Why is this a bad thing? Based on that description, I would think the public would think that we are very valuable, and would pay would equal that. But that's not the case now is it?
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Really? Yes, it is a bad thing. You are honestly saying the public should value and respect medics the same as a doctor? The reason they are not seen as valuable is because of the lack of education and the fact that almost anyone can be a medic in a very short time. Compared to a doctor who spent 10+ years to get into the position they are in.
 
DrParasite said:
Why is this a bad thing? Based on that description, I would think the public would think that we are very valuable, and would pay would equal that. But that's not the case now is it?
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I agree, we need to make ourselves look more valuable to the public. It just seems to me that the people with this mentality are also obnoxious morons who think they know all there is to know about medicine and do not bother with furthering their knowledge. I wish we were perceived better by the public, but I also wish that many in EMS also adjusted their perceptions to see EMS for what it really is, and not as street doctors essential to the survival of the human race.
 
Leading back to the lack of education and low requisites for admission to a medic program ... when I get into MD ...or DO, ill definatly would like to help ems grow as a profession ...
 
The answer shouldnt be to create a facade to make EMS only look more valuable. The answer is to actually make EMS more valuable.

People thinking they are as good as a doctor is VERY bad because it gives this widespread mindset that we know what we need to and we don't need
to strive to learn more.
 
Ok guys the tone is starting to slip. Stay on topic.
 
bigbaldguy said:
Ok guys the tone is starting to slip. Stay on topic.
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The fact that the general public has no idea what paramedics actually do is highly relevant to the fact that medics get paid dirt if you ask me. It's just another reason within the laundry list of reasons why EMS commands so little compensation.
 
Tigger said:
The fact that the general public has no idea what paramedics actually do is highly relevant to the fact that medics get paid dirt if you ask me. It's just another reason within the laundry list of reasons why EMS commands so little compensation.
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Compared to, say, fire, where the opposite is true - people think they know what fire departments do, but they actually have no idea, viz.:
Fires-and-Firefighters.png


EMS is in a tough spot, as far as compensation goes. I'd like to think there'd be a better revenue model than either billing patients or taxpayer money (which often end up paying for patient's bills anyway...), but I'm not smart enough to come up with anything.
 
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