Walmart Raises Minimum Wage to $10 - Why Not EMS?

[gonefishing]

The only thing that concerns me is the great divide. Rent is going higher, gas is a roller coaster, the cost of groceries is ever changing and the divide from the "upper class" and the "lower class" is ever more deviding with no middle. I beleive in that fair market balance. Just morals of knowing somebody can atleast put a roof over their head thats all.

 

[akflightmedic]

I understand that concern but I can also state people make a LOT of dumb personal decisions, have unrealistic definitions of what constitutes a life and then attempt to shift that burden onto the employer...who is more often than not a small business owner who did well for him/herself.

But again..."the morals of a roof"...if the job will not put a roof over your head, do NOT take it. Also, when did it become MY responsibility to ensure YOU do that? I have a need, I define the need and I offer what I determine to be a suitable wage for THAT NEED...not for your roof. YOU assess your personal situation and accept the terms of my need.

I have watched employees complain about bills but then see their purchases flashed before everyone. I have seen their vacations or mini-vacations, I have seen their clothing purchases, their coffee, eating out and smoking habits. In short, mostly due to social media, I have watched them blow every hard earned penny, yet turn around and claim they are not making enough and then try to fault the guy whose risked everything to be in business for himself.

I watch my friends do this on Facebook all the time. Woe is me, job sucks, money sucks...but damn if they do not continue with the same bad financial choices over and over. At some point the individual needs to take responsibility.

And this is coming from me...a liberal, Obama lover with socialist tendencies.

 

[irishboxer384]

The only people who have a real right to complain about their pay are the ones who worked for a company for a decent amount of time and suffered pay CUTS, or the people who's employer does not increase their wage to match national growth.

The rest of us signed the dotted line accepting what would be our pay. I cannot stand people in/out of the military who complain about how much our soldiers SHOULD be paid, noone was conscripted...every man and women is a volunteer.
Deal with it OR start up your own company and do better OR get into politics/senior management and facilitate change.

 

[gonefishing]

I understand that concern but I can also state people make a LOT of dumb personal decisions, have unrealistic definitions of what constitutes a life and then attempt to shift that burden onto the employer...who is more often than not a small business owner who did well for him/herself.

But again..."the morals of a roof"...if the job will not put a roof over your head, do NOT take it. Also, when did it become MY responsibility to ensure YOU do that? I have a need, I define the need and I offer what I determine to be a suitable wage for THAT NEED...not for your roof. YOU assess your personal situation and accept the terms of my need.

I have watched employees complain about bills but then see their purchases flashed before everyone. I have seen their vacations or mini-vacations, I have seen their clothing purchases, their coffee, eating out and smoking habits. In short, mostly due to social media, I have watched them blow every hard earned penny, yet turn around and claim they are not making enough and then try to fault the guy whose risked everything to be in business for himself.

I watch my friends do this on Facebook all the time. Woe is me, job sucks, money sucks...but damn if they do not continue with the same bad financial choices over and over. At some point the individual needs to take responsibility.

And this is coming from me...a liberal, Obama lover with socialist tendencies.

I do have to agree with you on that. I've been apart of many ventures and have been on the owners side and seen the stupidity of certain employeees. Thing I don't like is Obama. Sorry.lol

 

[Summit]

cnas and mas do the same thing than but just wipe buts but earn about double what an emt makes and most are not even required to have a diploma.

EMT is what, 160 hours? And a position that has a major cool factor and is generally respected by society compared to unskilled or blue collar jobs.

MA is usually 800-900 hours including clinicals for a certificate. There are AAS MA programs. MAs are replacing LPNs (usually 1.5 year program) in primary care offices. They do coding, billing, front and back office skills, complex assessments, drug interactions, drug administration routes that EMTs don't do, laboratory tests, and many other skills that EMTs don't have training or education to do without very extensive OJT. Some offices do hire more educated and experienced EMTs to work in the clinical assistant role and train them up.

CNAs are paid what they are paid because it is brute physical labor, highest back injury rate of any profession, tedious repetitive duties, and higher assault rates than EMS.

What EMTs do doesn't compare for a BS factor.

So, if you want more money, get a less desirable job or get more education.

 

[Chewy20]

If Walmart can pay their employees starting out $10 an hr then so be it. Money isn't everything. How many people out there really make over $15 an hr? I know I sure don't.

Remember were not in this for the money, if so, there is certainly a problem.

Joseph

You seriously don't believe that right? You wont catch me dead working this job or any job for free, unless its for charity. Money pays the bills and lets you do the things you want. I am an EMTB, and with benefits included will make over 60k in 2015 if I decide to work 3 days a week instead of 2. So plenty of people out there make over $15, its about finding them and be willing to relocate.

 

[SandpitMedic]

I see business owners against employees heating up in this thread.

There are aspects to both I agree with. Here are a few points I'd like to make.

There are a lot of companies that are not "small businesses" in the private EMS world. Envision Healthcare, the leader in private ambulances in the US, made 3.73B in NET revenue in 2013; it is the largest private employer of EMS folks in the USA. That number has increased undoubtedly in 2015. (http://investor.evhc.net/press-rele...uarter-and-full-year-2013-results-and-reaffir)

In case you don't know what that B means... That is $3,730,000,000.00 in one year. Just shy of 4 billion dollars.

Average starting salary for full time EMT/Paramedic =$31, 020 in one year (the latest Bureua of Labor Statisics report was from 2012 and it combines EMTs & Paramedics from the private AND public sector) (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/emts-and-paramedics.htm)

I believe I started at about $21,000 GROSS annually as a basic WITHOUT OT. (NOT with Envision) When I transferred to EMSC (later EnVision) I made even less as a basic, clocking in at about $19,000 Gross annually, again WITHOUT OT in a different part of the state with a lower cost of living. In 2014, as a Paramedic in a different state and after going to school to advance skill level, I made about $57, 000 in one year WITH OT (Base is about $47,000)... Me= $57,000, them= 4,000,000,000.00

It is true that you should not accept a job that doesn't pay you enough to make the rent payment. However, the fact that people want to do this job doesn't mean that just because it is a stepping stone, or a minimal skill set, or a position that comes with inherent risks (biological risks, code 3 driving risks, injury risks) doesn't mean that employers should pay low-down-dirty wages. Some folks don't have a choice... It's take this minimum wage job, or be a crook, or be on public assistance...

We ought to make more than a person flipping burgers or a Walmart employee, any way you slice it...But individuals should also do their part in securing suitable wages (relocating, schooling, etc.) Am I saying we should be rich? No, but while the starting wages should entice you to progress your education it should also allow you to provide a modest roof over your head and food on the table and a child if you want... if you want to live a minimal lifestyle. If you want 3 kids, a house, a boat, steaks, and that type of lifestyle then you should indeed have to move up the ladder. But the base should be enough to provide for a small family - you know... the American dream. While to us in the business it is the lower step, but to give it equal justice it is not on the level of a burger flipper or a person who took a free first aid class. And it comes with responsibilities that should be better compensated for.

Counter point to the business guys: While it is not your responsibility to put a roof over your employees head, you should be concerned if he can not. Small business owners are generally providing a service to their local community. The local community suffers if wages are insufficient or stagnant. It is a major factor that drives people with progressive motives out while enticing those with more nefarious or self-serving motives in. As a business owner, you should get your big slice... It doesn't need to be a communist style "give me an equal slice." Rather it should be what is fair. And yes, if you want what you believe to be "fair" then go get a better freakin' job. I get that. I did that... but 4B to 57K?!... If I weren't such a damn hard worker, who believes that doing the right thing and working hard and climbing the ladder will eventually pay off, I would be inclined to give my most minimal productivity humanly possible in the workplace. They ought to pay us more. I understand why we have some lazy folks around in EMS, like every other place. You cannot deny that the cost of everything (food/fun/housing/travel/taxes/registration fees/education/EMS licensing fees/ETC) is rising while the wages are not...

Additionally, just because we can only do what a doc tells us we can do, doesn't mean we shouldn't make more. Are you serious with that? I have the responsibility, and at the end of the day I am the one held accountable for what I do in the field... not that doctor. Your argument is invalid. We should be compensated based on our KSAs and education level... RNs make 2-3 times what we do... in an industry that makes comparable net profits. I'm not trying to debate the RN vs Paramedic pay in particular, but it is a good example for EMS. (A similar comparison would be a policeman vs. correctional officer making the same ballpark salary.) I can intubate, dart, use electrocution, administer drugs, interpret EKGs, etc.. on my own accord and I am liable for my actions. The RN must defer to a Doc. She makes 2-3 times more than me, and I have a trainload of more responsibility than she does... WHY!?! I don't want to be an RN just to make more $$$. I want to do what I love and make that... The system is broken, as a whole. It isn't one businessman's fault. In business there is red and black, in life there is black and white, and in EMS there is a whole lot of ******* grey!

-We should be fixing the problem together, not bantering about who gets what and who is worth more, and where is the line between a greedy businessman and a fair businessman.

Personally, I am working on my degree and on up to MD as well as moving on to a "career" agency.

Also, convicted felons can work at Walmart.... Just sayin.

 

[looker]

People in this thread are forgetting that while there are some multi state ems corps, most are not. Which means they are a lot less resources to , shift cost etc. Also lets not forget what else impacts when the wage goes up, worker comp is tied to employee wage which means that if I raise someone wage, i also pay more in worker comp insurance, and more in payroll taxes. At the same time, medicare and private insurance are lowering their reimbucement, vehicle replacement cost of new vehicles are going up, cost of repair are going up, gas against starting to go back up etc. Basically many local companies are operating on low profit margin and it's not realistic to expect the wage to go up compare to say Walmart which is multistate corporation that making billion of dollars in profit a year. Lastly I never understood people say that employee should get a wage every year when it's really all about supply and demand. If i have 100 employees working for me and i have 50 resume on hr table at anytime, why in the world would I want to pay more unless an employee does something for me that other employees can't do.

 

[SandpitMedic]

...it's really all about supply and demand. If i have 100 employees working for me and i have 50 resume on hr table at anytime, why in the world would I want to pay more unless an employee does something for me that other employees can't do.

Because you actually give a **** about your people and view them as more than just a number. Wow. I hope you aren't an owner of an EMS company. You can't even type in a proper and professional demeanor, let alone think about the people as more than money.

You're the EMS equivalent of the Enron execs that shafted all their folks retirement. Greedy scumbags.

Not to mention that your people will be more productive and efficient if you throw them a bone every now and again. You said yourself... Costs go up- for ALL of us... You drive the cost on to the consumer... Not the employees.

::facepalm::


Don't get it twisted either... I'm not putting forth a sense of entitlement. I'm no more entitled to a fair living wage than the next guy, or the boss. But as I stated, we should be compensated fairly.

 

[looker]

Because you actually give a **** about your people and view them as more than just a number. Wow. I hope you aren't an owner of an EMS company. You can't even type in a proper and professional demeanor, let alone think about the people as more than money.

You're the EMS equivalent of the Enron execs that shafted all their folks retirement. Greedy scumbags.

Not to mention that your people will be more productive and efficient if you throw them a bone every now and again. You said yourself... Costs go up- for ALL of us... You drive the cost on to the consumer... Not the employees.

::facepalm::


Don't get it twisted either... I'm not putting forth a sense of entitlement. I'm no more entitled to a fair living wage than the next guy, or the boss. But as I stated, we should be compensated fairly.

Yes actually i am EMS owner. As for should be compensated fairly that is not how it works. Employees think that i am worth more because i am doing lots of work etc. The reality is how hard employee work do not determine what they get paid. Company pay employee the lowest amount they can and if employee feel they are worth more they are welcome to get a raise by getting another job, another skill etc. EMS is not the industry that shortage of employees so to expect employer to throw someone a bone is the wrong industry to be in.

 

[SandpitMedic]

Your strategy is terrible.

What you're talking about is old fashion greed, and you reap what you sow.

I understand the desire to be profitable and have minimal overhead. If I owned a business, I could run it efficiently and with a profit, and still care about my people. Business that have: Google, Costco, Safeway/Vons, railroads, In-N-Out... Etc... Some skilled trades- some not skilled trades... Either way there are ways to run a profitable, efficient, and ethical business while paying a good wage to attract a higher caliber of employee.

People like you are the reason labor unions were formed and labor laws enacted.

You can hire EMTs for $8 an hour... Good for you. Your kids will likely cost you more in terms of turnover, insurance rates and vehicle accidents, errors in practice, poor documentation, etc. in the long run.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

You're part of the problem, and you're trolling me hard on this.

 

[akflightmedic]

I just want to point out for the first time EVER on this forum, I have "liked and agreed" with looker. It was hard to do, but he/she is right.

Sandpit, you are so wrong about throwing a bone and getting more efficiency and production out of an employee. That little spurt of energy from the bone throwing fades rapidly. What you need is people who do the work as agreed, efficiently and productively as possible every day. We agreed to a price for said service, so perform said service every day you are scheduled...that is the agreement.

And you also used these massive companies to prove your point. All of these companies at one time were small start ups who did well. At what point do you cap their profit? How do you determine that cap? How do you regulate it? Who enforces it? I asked this earlier of someone else but no reply as of yet. Everyone one of those people at the top believe they are/have achieved The American Dream. Is there only one definition?

 

[gotbeerz001]

For everyone complaining about your wages:
This is obviously the best option you have or you would do something else, somewhere else. There are opportunities out there for those who have the drive to go after them, the skills to get them and the adaptability to maintain them.

If you are unwilling to make the personal adjustments required to make THE CAREER YOU CHOSE work with the life you desire to have, I do not see how that is your boss' fault.

You can keep crying if you wish or find a way to make yourself more valuable.

 

[SandpitMedic]

Sandpit, you are so wrong about throwing a bone and getting more efficiency and production out of an employee. That little spurt of energy from the bone throwing fades rapidly. What you need is people who do the work as agreed, efficiently and productively as possible every day. We agreed to a price for said service, so perform said service every day you are scheduled...that is the agreement.

And I totally can dig that. All I'm saying is as a whole, why should an EMT make less than a Walmart employee? There are small companies paying $15/hr for EMTs... It is possible. Why must you pay the bare minimum?

I get that as an employer you want folks to stick to the agreement they signed up for. I went through all this testing and payed all these fees and jumped through circus hoops to get this job... So now I'm going to turn it down because I'll have to start at a few bucks less an hour? No, of course I'm gonna take the job even if I think I should make more starting. My hope is to move up to a level of success I desire; everyone starts somewhere.

But while our labor/wage agreement may not have changed, life around us has... I have to pay these dumb increasing fees to NREMT to stay certified, I have to pay the county a fee, I have to pay for finger printing, I have to buy food that costs more, my car registration costs more, phone service costs more, everything is rising and inflation is booming in the economy... Everything is going up... But not my wage.... Because we have an agreement?
You should also want to retain folks, so they will be better at the job you want done and have their loyalties to you.

I see both sides. While I see the financial standpoint of... Why give John a raise after 5 years when Jim can come in as a new hire for less money?.

It is financially a good strategy, but it is an unethical and immoral decision. It's greedy.

I also see the other side... "It could be raining ***** and troops will complain that the leadership is not providing an equal ration of *******s." I know your business, I know what guys in your business make- and they still complain... Trust me, I understand what you're saying. And I do agree with you to some extent; I like to think I'm a centrist on this issue. Both sides have valid arguments.
Which is why I say we should make a little more... Not $35 an hour...

And you also used these massive companies to prove your point. All of these companies at one time were small start ups who did well. At what point do you cap their profit? How do you determine that cap? How do you regulate it? Who enforces it? I asked this earlier of someone else but no reply as of yet. Everyone one of those people at the top believe they are/have achieved The American Dream. Is there only one definition?

What works best for In-N-Out or Envision may not be best for your business. And I don't think you can put a hard cap on success or a finite number of when it's time to start "spreading the wealth" of a company a little more to the people who's labor and backs contribute a vital factor of that company's success. I know that once you hit a billion you're pretty much set... 500M even? When you have too much money, and you don't know what to do with it - except make more - maybe it would be good to give your people a dollar or two raise, a bonus, something...

That might not buy you more efficiency or loyalty from everyone. I can only speak for myself, that if I was paid what I was valued... As in.... Somewhere ballpark (even LOWer but a little closer) to what a fireman and a nurse make who do the same damn job... Then I would be happier, more productive, more eager to "help out." (Ps I always love the employer who asks you to help out the company.." Help us out, come in on your off day..." **** that... I'm here to get paid... This is business, a $4B business. Pay me more if you want my time.) Small businesses that are starting up should be expected to provide a livable wage to prospective employees... Although, obviously the wage would not be as high as a billion dollar company. EMTs should start at about 12-14 per hour. It's reasonable. Medics...low/mid 20's. It just should be that way for what we do.

Not everyone is a hard worker, and some will actually work harder to do less work. I'm not one of those guys, it just isn't in me to be a lazy scumbag. But if we were made to feel valued we may just give that extra inch... Without taking an extra mile or cutting corners.

You see it differently than I do. Naturally, you're the one running the show and taking the risk. I get that.

There isn't a single definition of the American Dream... But there are those who dare to work hard for it, and those who want a handout. If I work hard for you chasing my American Dream, and in turn that helps you accomplish your American Dream.... Then there should be a moral compass that tells you that you should be a just and fair person.

However, greed is a tale as old as time, and not everyone has a moral compass. As far as I am concerned you actually pay your employees well and have a compensation package that is commensurate with the risk, responsibility, and KSAs of your people. You, and your company, are not part of the problem of the domestic EMS problems we have.

I think here at home, you'd run a fine ambulance company... And while you stand on the owner/operator soapbox I think you'd pay EMTs more than $8/hr. Then again, maybe I am way off base.

 

[SandpitMedic]

For everyone complaining about your wages:
This is obviously the best option you have or you would do something else, somewhere else. There are opportunities out there for those who have the drive to go after them, the skills to get them and the adaptability to maintain them.

If you are unwilling to make the personal adjustments required to make THE CAREER YOU CHOSE work with the life you desire to have, I do not see how that is your boss' fault.

You can keep crying if you wish or find a way to make yourself more valuable.

I agree.

I just think as a whole we should start out making more. The base should be higher.

I'm not complaining. The base has not increased as the inflation has around us. It's an observation, not a complaint.

And if you want more $$$ in this industry the way it is today then you should do what you have to make yourself more valuable than the guy standing next to you. 100% agree.

You business owners and us employees are not going to 100% agree on this. Our perspectives are vastly too different. It too is a tale as old as time... The peasants against the Kings.

It will take a great leader or a great revolution to correct the imbalance in our current civilization.

 

[looker]

I agree.

I just think as a whole we should start out making more. The base should be higher.

I'm not complaining. The base has not increased as the inflation has around us. It's an observation, not a complaint.

And if you want more $$$ in this industry the way it is today then you should do what you have to make yourself more valuable than the guy standing next to you. 100% agree.

You business owners and us employees are not going to 100% agree on this. Our perspectives are vastly too different. It too is a tale as old as time... The peasants against the Kings.

It will take a great leader or a great revolution to correct the imbalance in our current civilization.

The base can't be higher when there is high supply of qualified people that are ready and willing to work for offered amount. The day company can't find employee and have to refuse transportation and/or have to keep calling their backup provider is the day they will raise their base pay. Till that time there is no reason for a company to pay more.I agree that employee need to make them more valuable be it at current employer or new one. If a go to employee that is always willing to do what is needed to be done etc want to leave because they want higher pay, you can bet that I will think about giving that employee a raise in order to keep them(as long as it's reasonable amount). On the other hand if it's an employee that just show up to work and does minimum she/he need to do in order not to get fired then I honestly don't care if they go to another company. AS i mentioned in my other reply's the reimbursement is dropping and that will have to change as baby boomer starting to retire which will result in much higher need of ambulance. We already have big ambulance company that does 911 having finance issue.

 

[SandpitMedic]

While I don't like what you're saying, and had a relatively hard time translating that into proper English so I could understand it, I agree with it 100%.

Supply and demand- check.
Run an efficient business- check.
Raise for good employees- check.
Screw weak employees- check.

I'm on board with that. I just think ,personally, even if supply is unlimited we should make more salary based on our work and cost of living. Although, I do understand some of the many reasons why we don't make more though.

I'm on both sides. Unless you're a greedy POS scumbag.

It is what it is. Moving up the ladder is the only way to find success.

The supply will be unlimited until the Fire Service becomes the FIRE Service once again. That and the education standard needs to be AS at minimum. Until that time, every FF hopeful will be carrying an EMT or P card.

**** in one hand, want in the other... See which one fills up first.

 

[Carlos Danger]

Because you actually give a **** about your people and view them as more than just a number.

Not to mention that your people will be more productive and efficient if you throw them a bone every now and again. You said yourself... Costs go up- for ALL of us... You drive the cost on to the consumer... Not the employees.

Lots of employers do pay more than they really have to, but it's usually not to be nice to the employees or to benefit their community, it's because in the long run it benefits the employer in lower turnover, more effective employees, and a more pleasant work environment for everyone. Other employers judge that lower turnover and happier employees isn't worth the increased compensation that they have to shell out. It's a business decision that varies based on the perspective of the individuals who are making the decision.

But employers paying higher compensation just out of the goodness of their heart and for no other reason is never going to happen. Nor should it. Paying more for something than it is really worth distorts the true value of the thing you are paying for and hurts the market in the long run. At least if you do it on a widespread basis, anyway.

When you buy something at Walmart or a fast food place, do you offer to pay more for the item just because you know the people working there don't make much money? Thats' exactly what you are expecting employers to do when you say that they should pay more for labor than it is really worth to them.

 

[SandpitMedic]

When you buy something at Walmart or a fast food place, do you offer to pay more for the item just because you know the people working there don't make much money? Thats' exactly what you are expecting employers to do when you say that they should pay more for labor than it is really worth to them.

You beat me to posting this rational realization by about 40 minutes. Bought an item at a convenience store for $1.49 and got 51 cents back... And thought... Why would I want to give him the 51 cents back and pay $2 for an item that costs $1.49?

My wheels are turning, and I am coming to the light. I don't like it, and it ought to be different, but it is what it is.

We should make more. Just because of everything I stated earlier. Life isn't fair.

But I must say, I love this site for its wealth of knowledgable individuals and intellectual debate.

 

[akflightmedic]

Everyone SHOULD make more...seems the only way to even the playing field is to go full on communist and that did not work out too well in the past. Socialism seems to have merit but it is a tough concept to sell.

I think there is a reasonable balance between free enterprise and socialistic concepts which can work. It just takes open minds, willingness to try and support from the top (but all those guys benefit the most from current setup, so good luck)!!

In the meantime, what to do...what to do?