Should EMS/Fire be armed?

DrParasite

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If you don't want to be mistaken for a cop, no. The more you look like a cop, the more likely you are to be mistaken for one. If an EDP sees someone coming up in a vehicle with flashing lights, wearing BDUs, boots, and a job shirt, and carrying a gun or a taser, they're gonna think your a cop.
you know what? that is a fair point. most cops don't wear job shirts, that's more of a firefighter thing. BDUs are more of a military thing. If you are carrying a gun of taser in a concealed manner, where it isn't visible, then your concern about looking like a cop goes away right?
Meanwhile, if we come carrying medical gear or wearing an ANSI vest or turnout gear, no one is gonna think you're a cop
Cops wear Ansi vests all the time, and they keep their gun on them; have you ever seen them directing traffic? Firefighters will be the ones who are wearing turnout gear, not EMS personnel (EMS personnel typically don't wear turnout gear on "routine" EMS calls).

I honestly think your belief that you look like a cop is more on your head than in the head of an EDP.
 

Jim37F

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Somewhat tangential, but just a day or so ago, there was a fatal police shooting here. They just released the Body Cam footage. Basically guy walks up to the cops, they tell him to get on the ground, and he just starts wailing on them. He's fighting with two officers, a third arrives and immediately attempts to Taser him, but it's ineffective. Guy shoves one of the cops to the ground, one gunshot is fired by that cop, Guy straddles the cop and starts beating him (cop lost consciousness), one of the other two fired and killed the guy. Body cam showing he was clearly still actively beating his fists into the unconscious police officer's face.

And people are STILL defending him, saying "Oh, Police should have de-escalated" "He only got shot because he is black" etc etc.

So yeah, even in a "captured on video of absolutely clear cut case of self defense", public backlash if an EMT or Medic shot someone would be crazy, and they would still be saying "oh if you can't handle the job without shooting someone it's not the job for you" and holding memorials for the assaulter, and demanding EMS get disarmed and/or defunded or whatever.

I'm not against Conceal Carry if it's legal in your State (and I think it should be legal in all 50 states), and you're carrying in compliance with the law as you would off duty... but "Arming EMS like Police" meaning employers provide firearms, ammo, holsters, training, etc and you wear it on your belt next to your Leatherman Raptors, mutltiool, pager, glove pouch, etc etc, no, that I do not support.
 

CCCSD

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you know what? that is a fair point. most cops don't wear job shirts, that's more of a firefighter thing. BDUs are more of a military thing. If you are carrying a gun of taser in a concealed manner, where it isn't visible, then your concern about looking like a cop goes away right?

Cops wear Ansi vests all the time, and they keep their gun on them; have you ever seen them directing traffic? Firefighters will be the ones who are wearing turnout gear, not EMS personnel (EMS personnel typically don't wear turnout gear on "routine" EMS calls).

I honestly think your belief that you look like a cop is more on your head than in the head of an EDP.
wrong. Cops wear pullover tops. Cops wear BDU pants. Daily.
 

Jim37F

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And I see EMTs wear BDU pants daily (and cops wear regular non cargo uniform pants daily as well). Of course those EMTs are wearing all white shirts vs HPD's dark colored uniforms. What's the point of whether or not they're wearing pants with pockets or not?
 

DrParasite

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wrong. Cops wear pullover tops. Cops wear BDU pants. Daily.
good job, you completely missed the point of my post.
 

DrParasite

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And people are STILL defending him, saying "Oh, Police should have de-escalated" "He only got shot because he is black" etc etc.

So yeah, even in a "captured on video of absolutely clear cut case of self defense", public backlash if an EMT or Medic shot someone would be crazy, and they would still be saying "oh if you can't handle the job without shooting someone it's not the job for you" and holding memorials for the assaulter, and demanding EMS get disarmed and/or defunded or whatever.
has anyone asked those people how much injury a cop needs to sustain before they can defend themselves from a lethal threat?

And out of curiosity, how much public backlash occurs when an EMT or Medic is killed or injured by an attacker in the line of duty? Or are certain people ok with EMT or PD officers dying in a LODD at the hands of an attacker, because that's an acceptable risk and part of the job?

The ignorance to the facts that many of the general public experience (polling shows that some groups of people think cops kill 1000+ unarmed POC a year, when the actual number is closer to 27), and many in the media manipulate the facts to elicit an emotional outrage from people, without including crucial context, is really not what I am concerned about... Those people need to be educated about the reality of the situation and provided the facts that demonstrate that their beliefs are based on correct assumptions.

I want to go home at the end of every shift. Most cops I know want the same. most cops I know don't have to shoot anyone. it's not fun, and it's not something they are looking forward to doing. But if it's either they kill the attacker, or the attacker kills him... I know what choice I would make, every time.
 

ffemt8978

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Thoughts? What if this medic had a legal CCW and was able to defend himself?
Realistically, inside the confines of an ambulance the crew being armed probably wouldn't have made a difference. The suspect gets to set the time of the attack, so the crew will always be on the defensive. Despite what the movies portray, trying to draw a weapon of your own when a gun is already pointed at you will result in you getting shot.
 

ITBITB13

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Realistically, inside the confines of an ambulance the crew being armed probably wouldn't have made a difference. The suspect gets to set the time of the attack, so the crew will always be on the defensive. Despite what the movies portray, trying to draw a weapon of your own when a gun is already pointed at you will result in you getting shot.
Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.

This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.
 

Aprz

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Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.

This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.
Perhaps my own experience with having a gun pointed at me is different from yours, but the two times somebody has pointed a gun at me, I didn't know what was happening until too late. If you know you're gonna draw, maybe you're a faster draw, but will you know? Hopefully your patient is actually slower too. There are police bodycams that show unsuspecting officers getting shot at or some who are just starting to sense something is wrong. I think they are excellent examples of how it goes down for the people who haven't had a gun pointed at them. I highly recommend watching them.
 
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CCCSD

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Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.

This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.
Where do you carry it?
 

ITBITB13

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Where do you carry it?
I’m not admitting to carrying at work, or even having a ccw permit, that I own guns, or that I’m even a practicing EMT or Medic. But if I did it would be a Hellcat in a pocket holster within a Velcro sealed pocket.
 

CCCSD

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I’m not admitting to carrying at work, or even having a ccw permit, that I own guns, or that I’m even a practicing EMT or Medic. But if I did it would be a Hellcat in a pocket holster within a Velcro sealed pocket.
And you could outdraw someone already pulling on you.

Nope.
 

ffemt8978

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Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.

This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.
Beliefs like that can get you killed. Take a gander at the youtube channel active self protection and watch some of the vids about defenders trying to draw from the drop. They don't end well.
 

johnrsemt

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If I was allowed to carry on duty (CCW) and someone pulled a gun and shot me or my partner (or shot at us) in the back of the ambulance; yes I would pull mine and shoot back, and continue shooting him until he stopped moving. Hypothetically of course.

Otherwise it is beat the patient with our metal clipboards like I have in the past when someone pulled a knife on me, or took a swing at me; but wait now it is beat them with my tablet.
 

DrParasite

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I know this was mentioned about the hospital shooting, but this is my feeling about the situation:
I am distressed that the gun wasn't found on scene.
however...
Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.

This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.
I'm pretty sure it won't be, especially when you don't know a gun is being pulled on you.

You having your own CCW firearm isn't going to prevent you from getting shot. it didn't stop the two paramedics in Arkansas from getting shot. If someone is going to shoot you, unprovoked, your gonna get shot or shot at. Having your own CCW MIGHT prevent you from being shot a second time, as happened in Arkansas and likely saved the lives of both paramedics.

In the case in NYC, the paramedic was shot once, so it's unlikely having his own CCW would have prevented the shooting. It would have allowed him to shoot back, and kill his attacker (which I wouldn't have been opposed to), but having identified that his patient has a firearm on him before entering the ambulance would be been more effective in preventing the shooting form occurring.
 

ITBITB13

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And you could outdraw someone already pulling on you.

Nope.
Yeah, probably not. Unless we both happened to draw at the same time. …and I understand that but I’d rather get shot once and have a chance to to defend my partner and I afterwards. A fighting chance if you will.
Beliefs like that can get you killed. Take a gander at the youtube channel active self protection and watch some of the vids about defenders trying to draw from the drop. They don't end well.
I’m pretty well versed on active self protection and USCCA training videos. Most ccw weapons are drawn AFTER the initial aggressor pulls a gun one people. If you had a ccw and all the training involved you’d know that you get anywhere from a split second to a few seconds to analyze the situation, and wait for your opportunity to draw when and if it presents itself.
If I was allowed to carry on duty (CCW) and someone pulled a gun and shot me or my partner (or shot at us) in the back of the ambulance; yes I would pull mine and shoot back, and continue shooting him until he stopped moving. Hypothetically of course.

Otherwise it is beat the patient with our metal clipboards like I have in the past when someone pulled a knife on me, or took a swing at me; but wait now it is beat them with my tablet.
Let’s be friends.
I know this was mentioned about the hospital shooting, but this is my feeling about the situation:

however...

I'm pretty sure it won't be, especially when you don't know a gun is being pulled on you.

You having your own CCW firearm isn't going to prevent you from getting shot. it didn't stop the two paramedics in Arkansas from getting shot. If someone is going to shoot you, unprovoked, your gonna get shot or shot at. Having your own CCW MIGHT prevent you from being shot a second time, as happened in Arkansas and likely saved the lives of both paramedics.

In the case in NYC, the paramedic was shot once, so it's unlikely having his own CCW would have prevented the shooting. It would have allowed him to shoot back, and kill his attacker (which I wouldn't have been opposed to), but having identified that his patient has a firearm on him before entering the ambulance would be been more effective in preventing the shooting form occurring.
Obviously in a perfect world, we’d have law enforcement search all patients prior to transport. But we all know this isn’t always available.
 

DrParasite

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Obviously in a perfect world, we’d have law enforcement search all patients prior to transport. But we all know this isn’t always available.
until you have law enforcement refuse to search a patient's backpack for possible weapons, because they don't have probable cause. Been there, was told that... thankfully, we don't have any probable cause requirements.

So no, I'm not saying LE should be searching all patient (even though they should) I'm saying the EMS provider should be checking for things that might hurt them during their physical exam before they enter your ambulance.
 

CCCSD

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Yeah, probably not. Unless we both happened to draw at the same time. …and I understand that but I’d rather get shot once and have a chance to to defend my partner and I afterwards. A fighting chance if you will.

I’m pretty well versed on active self protection and USCCA training videos. Most ccw weapons are drawn AFTER the initial aggressor pulls a gun one people. If you had a ccw and all the training involved you’d know that you get anywhere from a split second to a few seconds to analyze the situation, and wait for your opportunity to draw when and if it presents itself.

Let’s be friends.

Obviously in a perfect world, we’d have law enforcement search all patients prior to transport. But we all know this isn’t always available.
Your CCW “training” or as you call it, “active self protection” (whatever that means) is going to get you killed. Anyone who believes they can outdraw someone from a non-standing, seated, hunched over, hands occupied, inattentive, restricted environment is a fool.
 

ITBITB13

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Your CCW “training” or as you call it, “active self protection” (whatever that means) is going to get you killed. Anyone who believes they can outdraw someone from a non-standing, seated, hunched over, hands occupied, inattentive, restricted environment is a fool.
It’s not “training” it’s actual video and hands on training.

The discussion on this thread is not about outdrawing anyone. It’s about carrying a concealed firearm legally and responsibly on the job, and having the opportunity to equalize a situation where your own, your partner’s or an innocent bystanders life could potentially be on the line before law enforcement intervention is available, or before you have an opportunity to safely exit a scene which suddenly becomes unsafe.
Will I end up hurt? Probably. However, although there aren’t many, there definitely are more documented events proving it’s better to carry concealed as a prehospital care provider than not.

You don’t have to carry a firearm if you choose not to. But you can’t force me not to. You won’t even know I am unless the unthinkable happens.
 
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