Should EMS/Fire be armed?

Summit

Critical Crazy
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Let us not forget that EMS goes into a myriad of places where it is illegal to carry a weapon, even with a CCW (jails, schools, bars, mental health facilities, etc). What do you do with your weapon then?
Not to mention the ER!
 

Tigger

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or the outcry after this, when a Armed paramedic who was shot by Kyle Rittenhouse testifies he thought teen was an active shooter?

and refresh my memory, where was the outcry following this shooting?

and lets not forget the outcry anytime a LEO shoots someone... even if doing so saves their life and the life of a member of the public. I mean, there were people complaining when this woman shot an intruder over 10 bras, and the family demanded that the shooter be charged!

No offense, but all too often the public is crying foul before the facts are even known, and the public doesn't give a damn about the life of a public safety professional.

Should any paramedic shoot someone? No, however, if a person is trying to kill said paramedic, would I be shedding a tear if the threat is mitigated using deadly force? probably not.

Lets also be realistic: there is absolutely no data to support the claim that having a paramedic with a CCW permit and firearm would result in increased civilian deaths. Lots of opinions, lots of assumptions, lots of worse case scenario, but no actual data that shows the fear mongering would actually happen. And before you say that's because that's because no state in the US allows it, in 2020 there was a change in Virginia’s EMS regulations that removed the prohibition of firearm carriage by EMS employees on duty. The blanket ban was lifted by the state. Has anyone heard the reports of the on duty paramedics shooting civilians? I must have missed all that outcry....
There is no evidence that paramedics having guns will have any benefit either.

Let’s look at this as we do with other expansions of care in the prehospital care realm.

The established norm is that EMS does not carry firearms. There are variety reasons why this may be the case, most of which have been expressed in this thread already.

Given that, some degree of evidence of benefit would be needed to change the norm. Does allowing EMS carry of firearms meet this burden?

There are a lot of medications and treatments that EMS could feasibly provide but there is too much risk in things going bad for it to be sensible
 
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DrParasite

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There is no evidence that paramedics having guns will have any benefit either.
That's an accurate statement... and it's accurate because there has never been any research done on the topic. However, there is research, conducted by the CDC during the Obama Administration, that concluded "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies" https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent and https://nap.nationalacademies.org/c...reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence
The established norm is that EMS does not carry firearms. There are variety reasons why this may be the case, most of which have been expressed in this thread already.
That is 100% correct. And as a result, we are known as a soft target, because everyone KNOWS that EMS is not armed. in NYC, More NY EMS workers are getting attacked on the job. The same claim cannot be said for those we interact with... At what point do we, as an industry, no longer want to be considered a soft target?
Given that, some degree of evidence of benefit would be needed to change the norm. Does allowing EMS carry of firearms meet this burden?
see the study from the CDC above.

As I have said numerous times, I'm not saying we should be carrying firearms. In fact, I have never carried a firearm on an ambulance, a firetruck, or in any emergency vehicle, nor do I really have any desire to. I'm not advocating for "here is your stethoscope, here is your glock" standards, because that is a recipe for disaster, and not one I would ever advocate for.

But if you carry 24/7/365 (lawfully and legally), why do your weapon retention and firearm proficiency cease to exist the moment you step foot on an ambulance? Why should a person become more vulnerable because they are going into potentially dangerous situations?
 

CCCSD

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That's an accurate statement... and it's accurate because there has never been any research done on the topic. However, there is research, conducted by the CDC during the Obama Administration, that concluded "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies" https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent and https://nap.nationalacademies.org/c...reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence

That is 100% correct. And as a result, we are known as a soft target, because everyone KNOWS that EMS is not armed. in NYC, More NY EMS workers are getting attacked on the job. The same claim cannot be said for those we interact with... At what point do we, as an industry, no longer want to be considered a soft target?

see the study from the CDC above.

As I have said numerous times, I'm not saying we should be carrying firearms. In fact, I have never carried a firearm on an ambulance, a firetruck, or in any emergency vehicle, nor do I really have any desire to. I'm not advocating for "here is your stethoscope, here is your glock" standards, because that is a recipe for disaster, and not one I would ever advocate for.

But if you carry 24/7/365 (lawfully and legally), why do your weapon retention and firearm proficiency cease to exist the moment you step foot on an ambulance? Why should a person become more vulnerable because they are going into potentially dangerous situations?
Because they work for a private/Gov entity and that entity gets to say what the rules are. I’m not even going to go into the insurance issues…
 

johnrsemt

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My PT job we can carry concealed, owner is ok with it, and her insurance company is too. Especially since in the 8,500 square mile response area we may be 2 hours from the police and part of the area we don't have cell and radio coverage so calling the police is tough.
Carrying into schools (both states allow teachers, staff and parents and civilians to carry concealed to protect the students so I am pretty sure that we fall into that group), into casinos (which doesn't allow CCW, but most of the security know some of us carry and they don't care) and into churches, (which some do and some don't allow it, but none have said anything).

I don't personally carry on Duty, but have thought more and more about doing so. Personal preference.
 

Tigger

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If a private entity doesn’t want you to bring a gun onto their premise, they have that right. This idea that EMS can just “get away with it” is absurd. Not sure when it became ok to violate other private entities rights just because you want to.

If that’s the attitude people have I don’t really want them to carry a gun either. Follow the rules like an adult.
 

Kavsuvb

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luke_31

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Yeah….pepper spray in the back of a rig. Paintball guns that can look like firearms…
Dude if you do the pepper spray in the back of the rig, film it please. Yes I know you’re kidding, but it would be a hilarious thing to watch from afar.
 

luke_31

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That wouldn’t be me.
I hear you there. I’ve been in the back with patients after they have been sprayed and it lingers on the skin and clothes, off gassing or something cause it’s not comfortable but at least it isn’t as bad as when it’s first sprayed.
 

Kevinf

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I've been in enclosed areas where mace and pepper spray were discharged. You will be very quickly abandoning an ambulace if either of those go off inside 😆
 

DrParasite

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As someone who was in the back of the ambulance when the drychem extinguisher went off, I can assure you that it's not just mace or pepper spray....
 

HardKnocks

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Several Law Enforcement Agencies have had "Dual-Role" Officers in Arizona. The two that first come to mind is the U.s. Border Patrol and the second is the Jerome Police Department. Most of the opinions here against arming EMS Providers can be debunked by reviewing these two agency's operations. They both provide top notch Basic and Advanced EMS Services, (with the USBP managing a full Air Rescue/Medivac Operation).

The City of Jerome Police Chief has successfully carried out Dual Roles as both EMS Provider and Local Law Enforcement. Its worked well and has saved the small town lots of money, not to mention, saved a few lives. The Chief is working on having all Police Officers EMT licensed.

This concept isn't new. I've been a "Shooting Medic" for several decades and for the aforementioned posts regarding concerns of losing focus during EMS Events or Tactical Proficiency its all a matter of training.
 

Summit

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The existence of fully trained LEOs that are also medics existing in well functioning niche roles does absolutely NOTHING to support the idea of arming all or most EMS.
 

Carlos Danger

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The existence of fully trained LEOs that are also medics existing in well functioning niche roles does absolutely NOTHING to support the idea of arming all or most EMS.
Their existence shows that it is entirely possible for a well trained individual to engage in patient care while safely retaining their weapon and prioritizing their focus on a moment-to-moment basis. Handling a firearm with a high degree of competence isn't rocket science. It takes a fair amount of training and the correct mindset, that's all.
 

CALEMT

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Their existence shows that it is entirely possible for a well trained individual to engage in patient care while safely retaining their weapon and prioritizing their focus on a moment-to-moment basis. Handling a firearm with a high degree of competence isn't rocket science. It takes a fair amount of training and the correct mindset, that's all.
Several Law Enforcement Agencies have had "Dual-Role" Officers in Arizona. The two that first come to mind is the U.s. Border Patrol and the second is the Jerome Police Department. Most of the opinions here against arming EMS Providers can be debunked by reviewing these two agency's operations. They both provide top notch Basic and Advanced EMS Services, (with the USBP managing a full Air Rescue/Medivac Operation).

The City of Jerome Police Chief has successfully carried out Dual Roles as both EMS Provider and Local Law Enforcement. Its worked well and has saved the small town lots of money, not to mention, saved a few lives. The Chief is working on having all Police Officers EMT licensed.

This concept isn't new. I've been a "Shooting Medic" for several decades and for the aforementioned posts regarding concerns of losing focus during EMS Events or Tactical Proficiency its all a matter of training.

Ok, but those are sworn officers who go through a POST academy and also enforce laws (federal, state, and/or local). Same goes to AZ DPS, the TFO (Tactical flight OFFICER) is also a paramedic who is also a sworn officer.
 

Carlos Danger

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Ok, but those are sworn officers who go through a POST academy and also enforce laws (federal, state, and/or local). Same goes to AZ DPS, the TFO (Tactical flight OFFICER) is also a paramedic who is also a sworn officer.
But they weren't born knowing how to use a gun. They learned through training.
 

Tigger

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But they weren't born knowing how to use a gun. They learned through training.
Learned through training, so they could do a completely different job (well at least the border patrol guys).

Not sure how the listed PD works, I am aware there places that have PD providing EMS. Sometimes there’s reasons why service delivery models are uncommon, and the fact that a few PDs out there provide EMS hardly means it’s the best idea.
 

CALEMT

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They learned through training.

Yes that would be POST. Where you lean weapons, basic tactics, laws, penal codes, defensive driving, de-escalation tactics, etc. To be a cop.

And for the record in case anyone is wondering. I’m not anti-gun. Quite opposite actually. I think it’s a significant disadvantage to be armed within the 21’ rule of someone. Especially in the confines of the back of an ambulance.
 
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