Smash
Forum Asst. Chief
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I have no doubt that EMS folk from the rest of the world read these threads with no small measure of both bewilderment and despair.
Self Defense Instruments
- Thread starter Canadian
- Start date
I have no doubt that EMS folk from the rest of the world read these threads with no small measure of both bewilderment and despair.
Well, now that you say that, I think we have to.
We should find a gun forum that has an off-topic section, then get 5 or so people to go register accounts over there and have an argument about some tired and worn out point...going straight from B to P, maybe?
We're not their first exposure to 'muricans, they're used to it.
Leatherpuke
Forum Crew Member
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I spend a great deal of time on one of the biggest gun forums on the internet. We have a sub-forum dedicated to EMS/Fire/LEO.
Bottom line, putting on an EMS uniform does not magically make you impervious to injury or assault. ALL people have the inherent right to self defense.
When I am ruler of the Earth, it will be mandatory that all able bodied adults be armed at all times, no exceptions. Crime will be a distant memory and BBQ's will be alot more fun.
cheers
Meursault
Organic Mechanic
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Yes, actually. The preppers are really bad about that, but at least one other gun community has semiregular "EMS story" threads. Which are promptly derailed by this exact meta argument.
I wonder how much of that is the (apparent) lack of good medical restraints. But you can't walk people into triage with those on.
I have needed to have patients cuffed before, but I don't see the point in carrying cuffs. If I need to go with metal restraints over soft, I need extra hands.
It is just an extra form of security for them. They deal with a lot of druggies that sometimes like to be combative. If they don't have the extra manpower right away it is a heck of a lot easier to apply cuffs rather than trying to tie soft restraints on a combative patient. BEMS is a top agency in the country, I will leave it to them to decide if its working for them or not.
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:lol:
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hitman196
Forum Probie
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I carry a rescue knife on and off duty.
My department does not allow anything for self defence or offense period.
My department does not allow anything for self defence or offense period.
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Yet somehow nearly every EMS agency makes due without them...
Ketamine. Ketamine works better than cuffs.
NomadicMedic
I know a guy who knows a guy.
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And that keeps you safe? What are you going to do if someone attacks you? Ask him to stand still while you cut his clothes off?
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Most variety of chemical restraint would work better than not-so-often applied handcuffs for an ostensibly medical use.
Too bad that when I was last in Massachusetts there was no standing orders for chemical restraint.
DrParasite
The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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poor excuse.... so because nearly every agency doesn't issue stab or bullet proof vests, your agency shouidn't?
or because not every agency RSIs people, and hasn't RSIed in years your agency shouldn't?
Maybe Boston is just ahead of the rest of the world, and in 20 years, handcuffs will be standard issue and everyone will think "wow, those BEMS were really progressvie when compared to the rest of the county, they did this 20 years before we did!"
Most agencies don't issue CO monitors to their EMS crews (so if they want into a sickness and find readings of this colorless and odor less gas, they have an inkling why), so by your logic, they aren't needed, yet there have been documented cases where having those CO monitors saved the lives of both the victims and the crews, because they weren't exposed to CO, and were able to evacuate the building and call the FD to properly mitigate the emergency.
In general, just because a minority is ahead of the rest of the world, doesn't mean following their lead isn't a good idea, and saying "well we never needed them before, so you having them is stupid" is thinking that will take us back to the stone ages and the horseless ambulance days.
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Yeah, I highly doubt that.....
NomadicMedic
I know a guy who knows a guy.
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I think comparing CO monitors and handcuffs is the epitome of apples and oranges.
This is an argument that has no winners. I don't believe in guns for EMS professionals. I don't believe in handcuffs for EMS professionals. Others do. No matter how much you posture and stomp your feet, you'll never convince me that EMS professionals should carry firearms. Sorry.
This is an argument that has no winners. I don't believe in guns for EMS professionals. I don't believe in handcuffs for EMS professionals. Others do. No matter how much you posture and stomp your feet, you'll never convince me that EMS professionals should carry firearms. Sorry.
I think more to the point is one of the core concepts of EMS: "If you've seen one EMS system, you've seen one EMS system.". What works and is appropriate for BEMS doesn't have anything to do with anything as far as other systems.
There is, of course, a huge tradeoff to be had with carrying handcuffs. On one side, there are patients it'd be nice to have as close as practicable to an absolute restraint on. The flip side is that it then blurs the line in patient's perception between us and cops, a distinction we rely heavily on to do our jobs. Our patients have to trust us, to let us poke holes in them and fill them with drugs, to answer us honestly when we ask if they've taken anything, and indeed, to not get aggressive with us in the first place. Unfortunately, as much as in infuriates me, people don't trust cops the way they trust us.
I would worry heavily about that before I did anything to marginalize that distinction. Since I assume that the leadership of BEMS aren't morons, I'm guessing they did, too. They obviously decided that in the balance of concerns, handcuffs were worth the trade-off.
Doesn't mean it applies elsewhere, and it certainly isn't a step that should be taken lightly.
There is, of course, a huge tradeoff to be had with carrying handcuffs. On one side, there are patients it'd be nice to have as close as practicable to an absolute restraint on. The flip side is that it then blurs the line in patient's perception between us and cops, a distinction we rely heavily on to do our jobs. Our patients have to trust us, to let us poke holes in them and fill them with drugs, to answer us honestly when we ask if they've taken anything, and indeed, to not get aggressive with us in the first place. Unfortunately, as much as in infuriates me, people don't trust cops the way they trust us.
I would worry heavily about that before I did anything to marginalize that distinction. Since I assume that the leadership of BEMS aren't morons, I'm guessing they did, too. They obviously decided that in the balance of concerns, handcuffs were worth the trade-off.
Doesn't mean it applies elsewhere, and it certainly isn't a step that should be taken lightly.
Unki brings up a very good point about how the simple fact that we don't openly carry any weapons or restraining devices on our person means we may not be the good guy to the patient, but we aren't the bad guys (cops). There are many times even in the ED where we get a patient brought in by PD with a true medical complaint, and we get PD to briefly step out for the sake of gaining accurate information.
Even on SAR we are told "don't ask don't tell" about weapons, but its subtly discouraged. Naturally most of us carry knives, but there are a few who conceal carry a pistol. The last thing a despondent wants to see is someone who looks like a police officer.
I guess I am confused why there is so much argument towards needing a self-defense "instrument". My suggestion is use your brain as that instrument. You think this Pt might try something funny in the ambulance? Have PD or Fire ride in the back. 99% of the time they are there for you anyway. Did someone jump you while on scene? If you're not trained to deal with it by hand, I assure you there will be no change in the outcome if you have a weapon, and a worse outcome if they see that fact. PD is your friend, though it sometimes doesn't seem like it
Quick note about body armor. Protocols usually pretty clearly state that PD must secure an unsecure scene before you can do your thing. It seems a bit hypocritical for an agency to blow money on kevlar if you are not even supposed to be on scene in the first place. "Stage around the corner" isn't a joke.
Even on SAR we are told "don't ask don't tell" about weapons, but its subtly discouraged. Naturally most of us carry knives, but there are a few who conceal carry a pistol. The last thing a despondent wants to see is someone who looks like a police officer.
I guess I am confused why there is so much argument towards needing a self-defense "instrument". My suggestion is use your brain as that instrument. You think this Pt might try something funny in the ambulance? Have PD or Fire ride in the back. 99% of the time they are there for you anyway. Did someone jump you while on scene? If you're not trained to deal with it by hand, I assure you there will be no change in the outcome if you have a weapon, and a worse outcome if they see that fact. PD is your friend, though it sometimes doesn't seem like it
Quick note about body armor. Protocols usually pretty clearly state that PD must secure an unsecure scene before you can do your thing. It seems a bit hypocritical for an agency to blow money on kevlar if you are not even supposed to be on scene in the first place. "Stage around the corner" isn't a joke.
joshrunkle35
EMT-P/RN
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It's an emotional issue for people on both sides. It's an issue like abortion. You could give true facts and statistics all day long and people won't change their opinion. They will change their opinion when confronted with an emotional moment, however.
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Wow. You're hyperbolic argument "strategies" are alive and well.
There is no replacement for CO monitors. More than a few agencies issue them (and we will too next winter).
On the other hand there are many replacements for handcuffs that are much less dangerous. And as far as I can tell there are no other EMS agencies that are not police based that allow this practice.
It is more than possible that the reason that some practices are not implemented by more agencies is that the practice is stupid, outdated, or useless.
Being unique does not make you progressive.