Self Defense Instruments

[joshrunkle35]

I can carry around a pair of ballet shoes for 10 years, doesn't make me an expert.

Well, I am a full time firearms instructor, try to take a class every month, and shoot 3-5 days a week. I have taken many courses from several famous instructors like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Todd Green, Rob Pincus, etc. I am an expert. However, police are nowhere near experts, they typically get around 60 hours of training in an academy, and usually take about 12-30 hours of training a year, sometimes less, yet they carry a gun every day, hence the importance I am placing on the practice of having gone a period of time without accidents or incidents being a good indicator of who should be allowed to carry a weapon for self defense.

 

[Rialaigh]

Well, I am a full time firearms instructor, try to take a class every month, and shoot 3-5 days a week. I have taken many courses from several famous instructors like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Todd Green, Rob Pincus, etc. I am an expert. However, police are nowhere near experts, they typically get around 60 hours of training in an academy, and usually take about 12-30 hours of training a year, sometimes less, yet they carry a gun every day, hence the importance I am placing on the practice of having gone a period of time without accidents or incidents being a good indicator of who should be allowed to carry a weapon for self defense.

As an expert I am sure you are familiar with the studies and experiments showing how effective guns are with an attacker of any kind within 10-15 feet of you...for those who don't know, they are flat out ineffective.

I don't care who you are, putting a gun in the back of an ambulance with unstable, altered, and combative people is a flat out bad idea, I don't care how well trained you are.

 

[joshrunkle35]

As an expert I am sure you are familiar with the studies and experiments showing how effective guns are with an attacker of any kind within 10-15 feet of you...for those who don't know, they are flat out ineffective.



I don't care who you are, putting a gun in the back of an ambulance with unstable, altered, and combative people is a flat out bad idea, I don't care how well trained you are.

If you are referencing things like the Tueller drill, they have been disproven.

 

[Rialaigh]

If you are referencing things like the Tueller drill, they have been disproven.

Not specifically referencing that but at 10 feet, I don't care how good you are, most in shape people could have stabbed you, probably multiple times, prior to you firing a shot or getting it drawn. Let alone putting a gun less than 3 ft away from a patient in a metal box where your focus should be patient care.


Back to the original topic, some at our service carry plastic zip ties, we have actually used them some prior to PD arriving. My biggest defensive is not putting myself in poor situations, my second biggest is always...always having numbers on my side whether its rescue squad, fire, pd, or by standers (family, friends)...always have at least a 5-1 prior to willingly entering a confrontation.

 

[joshrunkle35]

Not specifically referencing that but at 10 feet, I don't care how good you are, most in shape people could have stabbed you, probably multiple times, prior to you firing a shot or getting it drawn. Let alone putting a gun less than 3 ft away from a patient in a metal box where your focus should be patient care.





Back to the original topic, some at our service carry plastic zip ties, we have actually used them some prior to PD arriving. My biggest defensive is not putting myself in poor situations, my second biggest is always...always having numbers on my side whether its rescue squad, fire, pd, or by standers (family, friends)...always have at least a 5-1 prior to willingly entering a confrontation.

If you carry a gun, you should carry it on your person, not in a box.

 

[NomadicMedic]

If you carry a gun, you should carry it on your person, not in a box.

He meant in the ambulance...

 

[joshrunkle35]

He meant in the ambulance...

Got it. Sorry, I thought he was referencing storage in a drug box.

Either way, if I was concealing the firearm, how would anyone including the patient know? If I illegally concealed one, how would anyone know? My honor and respect for the law is the only thing that stops me, not the situation at hand.

 

[Chewy20]

I guarantee you I would be able to get off a center mass shot if a person was running at me 15 feet and in if I noticed him coming. Even if someone with not as much time behind a handgun was not able to get a shot off, there are other methods of taking away a knife, and then drawing your weapon if need be. Some agencies like Boston EMS are given handcuffs and bullet proof vests for a reason. Believe it or not people like to think we are cops for some reason or don't want us around their "drug houses" and will do what they want to keep you away. Heck, at my private company in small town MA last year a BLS crew was running a call on a woman for a "fall" and once they showed up realized she was shot, her husband came around the corner with a shotgun and took shots at the EMT's. Just because you can take the necessary steps to stay out of those situations, the example I just gave you shows that its all about being in the wrong place at the right time.

Do I carry at work? No I am not allowed, but you better believe I would like too.

 

[vcuemt]

I've never really understood this obsession some folks in EMS have with "being prepared" for getting attacked. To be fair I don't ride in Compton or downtown Detroit but I've only had one combative patient and the two of us in the back were able to easily soft-restrain them for the ride to the hospital. I had a guy in my agency who always used to talk about "being prepared," carried a knife specifically for self-defense, the works... and all I could do was roll my eyes. Ditto this entire discussion about guns. If you ever need a gun on-duty, then you've forgotten the first thing you said when you walked in to your NREMT practicals... "scene safe."

 

[MonkeyArrow]

On a note about bulletproof vests, do you wear them every day. A suburban fire agency a county away from me is buying bulletproof vests and trauma kits for a MCI situation, but it's in their protocol to only wear it when walking into a suspected "hot" situation. According to the captain, he said it is to help augment the trauma protocol and help firefighters/medics go in with police in an active shooter situation referring to Sandy Hook. What's the point of spending 350K on vests if you're never going to wear them.

P.S. This is the same department that got four of their members held as hostages last year by a man getting foreclosed. The call came in as a medical emergency. By the captain's own admission, the vests wouldn't have helped them in that situation since they wouldn't be on.

http://www.ajc.com/videos/news/bullet-proof-vests-coming-for-gwinnett-rescue/vCcx3B/

 

[epipusher]

Give these EMT's guns and we will have to find a stronger word than `whacker.' Wannabe will suffice for now.

 

[gw812]

Self-defense tool? Use a 1000ml bag as a sap.

-said to triage nurse- "No, I don't know how the patient became soaked and slightly salty..."

 

[UnkiEMT]

Self-defense tool? Use a 1000ml bag as a sap.

"Applied topical O2"

 

[Tigger]

On a note about bulletproof vests, do you wear them every day. A suburban fire agency a county away from me is buying bulletproof vests and trauma kits for a MCI situation, but it's in their protocol to only wear it when walking into a suspected "hot" situation. According to the captain, he said it is to help augment the trauma protocol and help firefighters/medics go in with police in an active shooter situation referring to Sandy Hook. What's the point of spending 350K on vests if you're never going to wear them.

P.S. This is the same department that got four of their members held as hostages last year by a man getting foreclosed. The call came in as a medical emergency. By the captain's own admission, the vests wouldn't have helped them in that situation since they wouldn't be on.

Those are two entirely different scenarios. Buying additional PPE to be worn during warm zone operations serves an entirely different purpose than buying one for everyday use.

Heck, at my private company in small town MA last year a BLS crew was running a call on a woman for a "fall" and once they showed up realized she was shot, her husband came around the corner with a shotgun and took shots at the EMT's.

Where the heck was that?

 

[joshrunkle35]

Give these EMT's guns and we will have to find a stronger word than `whacker.' Wannabe will suffice for now.

Do you have some reasoning or statistics to back this up?

This is what has been said every time when states have gone to concealed carry, yet violent crime rates have gone down, shootings have gone down and firearms accidents have gone down.

And just because someone doesn't want to wait 8 minutes for the police when they are actively being assaulted doesn't mean that their motivation is that they "wannabe" like the police.

I would be perfectly content to be allowed to carry a firearm concealed, and no patient or anyone at the station would ever know that I had a gun.

 

[Chewy20]

Middleborough. Sorry not the husband, a man that was staying with them in the house. I was covering that town that night, but was released back to the Plymouth base.

here's the link if interested.

http://www.heraldnews.com/article/20130713/News/307139937#

 

[DrParasite]

I don't care who you are, putting a gun in the back of an ambulance with unstable, altered, and combative people is a flat out bad idea, I don't care how well trained you are.

And yet, cops routinely carry their sidearm (and probably their backup gun) when they transport with us in the back of the truck.

Do any other agencies in Mass issue handcuffs? or was boston given a waiver by the proper AHJ to use the cuffs on EDPs and drunks who needed to go to the hospital against their will?

On a note about bulletproof vests, do you wear them every day.

I don't; however If I was issued one by my agency, I would. they are like insurance policies; you wear one in case you need it, hoping you never need it. and if you do need it, you are glad you were wearing it.

I've seen people with firearms prevent more incidents, without having to fire a shot. Amazingly enough, when you have an armed person in uniform standing in a place, people tend to behave more. This can be LEO, security, or even a person in authority who happens to have a gun on their hip. People think twice before attacking them.

When I work night shifts, I do carry a flashlight that can be used as a club in a pinch. But I do agree that not being a jerk off and being respectful is the best way to deescalate an incident. And if that doesn't work, take your partner and leave the scene, and come back when the cops have everything under control.

Self defense weapons (whose purpose is to be used as a weapon during a violent incident) don't belong in the hands of EMS.

Side note: if you have a CCW permit, and are legally allowed to carry a firearm, I have no objections to you carrying concealed. It is stupid to make a person take off their legally carried ambulance simply because they are getting on an ambulance.

 

[Chewy20]

Boston EMS is the only place I know of that issues actual cuffs (Worcester might). They are used, and used often. I know BEMS is apart of the same union BPD is so that may have had something to do with it when they were first introduced.

If you are against cuffs, come to Boston and try and get on a ride along. You will soon understand they help a lot. As I am sure a lot of other cities that use them benefit as well.

Me? I've never had problems with soft restraints, but if you give me cuffs I'll use em!

 

[johnrsemt]

I did a ride a long in Detroit about 15 years ago; when I got in the ambulance (back) they told me my vest was hanging over the airway chair. When I realized what type of vest it was I asked if I needed it; they pointed out 2 bullet holes in the side door, with corresponding holes in the other side. Told me that they were driving down a street a week earlier and someone shot at them as they drove by

They were the 3rd truck in line to get bullet holes fixed.

Some areas need extra protection.

Me in Indiana, I just used heavy metal clipboards, and my mouth. E size O2 tank once.

 

[NomadicMedic]

I wonder if people go to gun forums and talk about paramedicine?