Security Guards

[daedalus]

Has anyone ever had experiences being obstructed by security guards? There were three recent incidents at my company that have caused us to raise our concern over them.

The first occurred in a gated community, and a security guard at the gate refused to let one of our units out of the neighborhood after they had picked up a patient and started transporting to the hospital. The guard demanded the name, address, and complaint of the patient, which our driving crew member refused to divulge. Dispatchers were notified, who in turn called the security guards supervisor and told him that police would be dispatched if the guard did not open the gate ASAP. He did, and I am really hoping police were called anyways to follow up, but I do not know.

Second, involved myself and my partner. We responded to a urgent care clinic where we were met with an armed guard at the gate who threatened to use force against us if we did not park where he wanted us to. We left and posted around the corner until county police cleared the scene for us.

Third, one of our CCT crews was held at the front of a hospital by hospital security while they were trying to bring their patient upstairs to receive a STAT cardiac cath. The CCT RN threw a fit after that.

I am trying to understand why some people almost seem to like causing serious problems for others trying to do their jobs. Is this a pattern in your area as well?

 

[Kookaburra]

Oh my goodness! That's crazy. I haven't heard of anything like that around here. However, I'm in a poor(ish) rural area, so not so many gated communities. What do they think they're guarding? Fort Knox?

The only Security Guard annoyance I have is at my non-EMS job, a guy keeps coming in and trying to flirt with me while I'm trying to do my audit. And he's like 50. (I'm 24. Ew.)

 

[Hockey]

Security has tried to interfere with one of our calls. We quickly ended that mess. As I said, quickly.


I've had a similar situation regarding security demanding we release patient info. My partner, 6'6" somehow convinced the guard to open the gate. I don't know, I was too busy caring for the patient.

I've been in security so I know what they have to do. But it won't be the end of the world if they don't get the info. I know some complexs want security to note EVERYTHING that went on overnight.

I've also had security show up on a full arrest OD. He was standing there looking oh so unhelpful till I asked if he knew CPR and he said yeah. I told him to either take over CPR for me so I can do other things (ventilations, assisting the medic) or go elsewhere since there wasn't much room already...

 

[daedalus]

As an EMT, you now know that giving patient information to a security guard at a gate is a HIPPA violation. So while I understand their insistence on taking down info, it is a violation of the law for them to do so.

 

[JonTullos]

As an EMT, you now know that giving patient information to a security guard at a gate is a HIPPA violation. So while I understand their insistence on taking down info, it is a violation of the law for them to do so.

Exactly. Now here's a question: If a security guard refuses to let you out of the gate and the patient codes and dies, can the guard, his company, complex, etc. be held legally responsible for the patient's death? The logical side of me says the guard should be charged with manslaughter and the companies should be sued for wrongful death but I'm not sure what the legal side of things would say. Also, would the EMS or EMTs/medics have any legal recourse since the ability to perform their duty is being infringed upon?

 

[karaya]

HIPAA is very clear about not interfering with the care of a patient. For instance, in many areas it is common for dispatch to give out the patient's name to EMS responding to a call since in many rural areas that is the best way for crews to locate the residence. This was an actual example cited by HIPAA whereby HIPAA said the privacy ruling takes a back seat since prompt care to the patient is a priority.

This same example could easily be applied to the case of the security guard. If giving the name is all you need to get the patient through the gates, then give the name and move on with your patient. HIPAA will not touch this since divulging the name was necessary to expedite care to the patient.

 

[medicdan]

I wonder, specifically the second two examples, how warranted the security guards were. I am not defending their actions, but we need to consider them to be on our side, not against us. It is possible, specifically at the urgent care and hospital, that the proper authorities have discussed where is it most appropriate for ambulances to park when transporting urgent and non-urgent patients.

They have weighed your access to the "back hallways", the impact that your vehicle has on traffic patterns, what were to happen if, for example, while you were in the building, there were to be a fire, and FD apparatus would need to access the building, etc. Most likely, the guards were just expressing the facilities policy for your parking and access to the building, and you should consider taking that into consideration.

In fact, in the second scenario, you may have delayed patient care by posting around the corner. Threats aside, if you had listened to the guard in the first place, you would have been able to access and transport your patient (to higher medical capacity) much quicker. Remember, the goal here is to provide patient care, and I presume the definitive treatment your patient needed was not in the back of your truck, but at your destination.

I have some doubts a urgent care security guard would threaten you with violence for your parking, im sure he has other recourse if he feels you have done something wrong.

 

[daedalus]

In fact, in the second scenario, you may have delayed patient care by posting around the corner. Threats aside, if you had listened to the guard in the first place, you would have been able to access and transport your patient (to higher medical capacity) much quicker. Remember, the goal here is to provide patient care, and I presume the definitive treatment your patient needed was not in the back of your truck, but at your destination.

I have some doubts a urgent care security guard would threaten you with violence for your parking, im sure he has other recourse if he feels you have done something wrong.

While you are in fact correct about considering all possibilities and keeping an open mind, you are not correct in assuming violence was not threatened against my partner and myself. The guard in question works for a company contracted to provide security services at this urgent care, which is used by county patients. The situation required us to leave the scene (I will not post exact details, as incident reports had to be filed, and an investigation is on-going) for scene safety reasons, and law enforcement had to become involved. This is not a delay in care, it is a mandated part of our training and practice as prehospital medical profess.... well, technicians. If you are debating whether or not to leave an unsafe scene, you did not listen close enough in your class.

 

[daedalus]

HIPAA is very clear about not interfering with the care of a patient. For instance, in many areas it is common for dispatch to give out the patient's name to EMS responding to a call since in many rural areas that is the best way for crews to locate the residence. This was an actual example cited by HIPAA whereby HIPAA said the privacy ruling takes a back seat since prompt care to the patient is a priority.

This same example could easily be applied to the case of the security guard. If giving the name is all you need to get the patient through the gates, then give the name and move on with your patient. HIPAA will not touch this since divulging the name was necessary to expedite care to the patient.

Great points. I have never heard of these examples but they are good to keep in mind.

 

[akflightmedic]

HIPAA is very clear about not interfering with the care of a patient. For instance, in many areas it is common for dispatch to give out the patient's name to EMS responding to a call since in many rural areas that is the best way for crews to locate the residence. This was an actual example cited by HIPAA whereby HIPAA said the privacy ruling takes a back seat since prompt care to the patient is a priority.

This same example could easily be applied to the case of the security guard. If giving the name is all you need to get the patient through the gates, then give the name and move on with your patient. HIPAA will not touch this since divulging the name was necessary to expedite care to the patient.

Do you have the link to this case cited by HIPAA?

I did not think HIPAA had anything to defend other than how the transmission of patient information is transmitted, shared and stored when billing for medical services provided is involved.

This would make a great teaching moment if you were able to provide more information and direct links preferred.

Cheers!

 

[karaya]

Do you have the link to this case cited by HIPAA?

I did not think HIPAA had anything to defend other than how the transmission of patient information is transmitted, shared and stored when billing for medical services provided is involved.

This would make a great teaching moment if you were able to provide more information and direct links preferred.

Cheers!

Yes, I'll dig this info back up again. It was a very good piece that really centered around what we call "HIPAA Hysteria", which I find quite common in my travels. You are correct about the transmission of data, but when HIPAA came to life, there were a ton of assumptions about dispatch centers giving out patient info over the air and if there were any HIPAA issues as a result. If I'm not mistaken this came from a dispatching article, but again I'll check my achieves and post the link here.

 

[VentMedic]

As an EMT, you now know that giving patient information to a security guard at a gate is a HIPPA violation. So while I understand their insistence on taking down info, it is a violation of the law for them to do so.

The security guard is essentially an employee of that patient by fees paid to the gated community. It is that security guard's responsibility to protect that patient and their belongings. With the name given to the guard, he/she can now ensure the condo is secure and also direct family members in the proper direction if they have not already been notified.

I've had a similar situation regarding security demanding we release patient info. My partner, 6'6" somehow convinced the guard to open the gate. I don't know, I was too busy caring for the patient.

I've been in security so I know what they have to do. But it won't be the end of the world if they don't get the info. I know some complexs want security to note EVERYTHING that went on overnight.

I am appalled that some who claim to be part of a medical profession want to resort to force or threats instead of better educating themselves for these situations. There is no logic to threaten someone who may be doing their job when you may not know your own job as it pertain's to the law you are spouting off about.

 

[medicdan]

While you are in fact correct about considering all possibilities and keeping an open mind, you are not correct in assuming violence was not threatened against my partner and myself. The guard in question works for a company contracted to provide security services at this urgent care, which is used by county patients. The situation required us to leave the scene (I will not post exact details, as incident reports had to be filed, and an investigation is on-going) for scene safety reasons, and law enforcement had to become involved. This is not a delay in care, it is a mandated part of our training and practice as prehospital medical profess.... well, technicians. If you are debating whether or not to leave an unsafe scene, you did not listen close enough in your class.

Okay, I believe you there. Ultimately the decision that the scene is no longer safe is yours, and making that call early and often is key to your own safety. I clearly dont know the situation, and wont try to understand it, and it is your call to make. All I was trying to do was point out the other various views on this situation.

 

[medic417]

Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes. Heck that fact has even been on the news. Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts. Why get onto them for trying to do their job?

 

[Hockey]

Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes. Heck that fact has even been on the news. Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts. Why get onto them for trying to do their job?

Yes, they've heard about the impending Zombie attacks too I'm sure


We all have a job to do. It turns into a pissing match between everyone, including LE, FD, EMS, and yes, even security. It should, and fortunately often does, boil down to common sense. Just those few isolated incidents.

 

[VentMedic]

Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes. Heck that fact has even been on the news. Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts. Why get onto them for trying to do their job?

We do have a strong security and LEO presence at many of our hospitals especially the trauma centers. No one, including ambulance personnel, gets in without their knowledge. If you have even seen a gang retaliation attempt, you know it isn't a good sight. Also, some hospitals house controversial prisoners for medical treatment. The easiest way to get into that area is to impersonate a medical professional. Some family members of a murdered person don't care what happens to themselves if they can get close enough to get revenge. That is why some hospitals have a very closed access ward which may still unknowingly allow someone impersonating an EMT through.

I am also surprised at the number of ambulance personnel that get offended when asked by security to show ID. This is something required of almost every hospital employee across the country even if everyone knows everybody. Often I believe it is just insecurity and immaturity of some who feel their "importance" is in question by who they perceive to be a lessor professional.

BTW, if an EMT(P) threatens one of our security guards, they will feel the full effect of our LEOs' authority.

 

[AJ Hidell]

The only problems I've ever had with security guards in EMS is the occasional hospital guard who thinks I need to turn my ambulance off while it is parked at the ER dock. That ain't happening, and he's not going to be able to get into my locked ambulance to do it himself, so they are sometimes unhappy about that. Oh well.

While a police officer, I once responded to a security guard situation. A cable TV technician went to a gated community to check lines. A gate guard refused to let him in without a resident to specifically authorize him to their home. The tech blew the gate and went in anyhow. Two guards chased him down and held him for police. When I got there, I arrested both guards for assault and unlawful detention. I'm betting the cable company had no further problems there.

 

[firecoins]

I never had a problem with security. Only housing complex in our area that has security, the guards are all EMTs and "respond" to medical emergencies as first responders. They do help out with lifting and the like.

 

[VentMedic]

Yes, they've heard about the impending Zombie attacks too I'm sure

Ever hear of a little thing called the 9/11 attack?

The Oklahoma City Federal Building Bombing?

Centennial Olympic Park bombing?


This was published in FireHouse Mag:
Ambulances as Bombs - Now a Reality

http://cms.firehouse.com/print/Firefighter-Safety/Ambulances-as-Bombs---Now-a-Reality/10$2822

How about when ambulances are used as bombs?
Three die in Iraq 'ambulance bomb'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/three-die-in-iraq-ambulance-bomb-574858.html

None of us imagined something like 9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing could occur either. But they happened. I know some here are probably too young to know either of these major events well but they did change the way some think about safety in the U.S.

 

[karaya]

Here is a link to one of the articles that I discussed earlier.

http://www.iowaapco.org/HIPAA.htm

It's actually from an earlier article published by Page, Wolfberg and Wirth, LLC. However, in the article you will find what I was referring to earlier as an "incidental disclosure" whereby giving out the patient's name is necessary in order to facilitate treatment to the patient.

In the case of the security guard, just give him the patient's name so he will open the gate and allow you to continue transporting your patient. It's really that simple!