Security Guards

[VentMedic]

The only problems I've ever had with security guards in EMS is the occasional hospital guard who thinks I need to turn my ambulance off while it is parked at the ER dock. That ain't happening, and he's not going to be able to get into my locked ambulance to do it himself, so they are sometimes unhappy about that. Oh well.

While a police officer, I once responded to a security guard situation. A cable TV technician went to a gated community to check lines. A gate guard refused to let him in without a resident to specifically authorize him to their home. The tech blew the gate and went in anyhow. Two guards chased him down and held him for police. When I got there, I arrested both guards for assault and unlawful detention. I'm betting the cable company had no further problems there.

AJ! I am surprised at you with both of those examples.

I know you understand the reasoning for shutting off an ambulance that is near a building entrance. Disrespecting the health and safety of others because of whatever power trip you are on at the time to prove a security guard wrong does not make the situation right.

If I am paying association fees at a gated community for security, they darn well better check the crredentials of all who try to enter. Hence, the reason for a gated community. Again, the easiest way to gain access to one of these communities is to pose as a public service worker or health care professional. Even home health nurses go through the same screenin process. As a member of that gated community, I would have sued the PD for interfering with the safety of the members of that community by preventing the security company from doing their job by denying access to my place of residence. I want no one in my home without authorization from me.

If the community as a whole authorized or requested repairs, there should be a number of a board member or another person that can authorize entrance. Public Service companies are usually aware of the rules or how these communities function and there is rarely a problem.

 

[medicdan]

Ambulances as Bombs - Now a Reality

Just a quick note: I worked in Israel for some time last year (on an ambulance). There, constant high security is the norm, and people dont think twice about being asked to show their bags when they enter a building.
At the entrance to every hospital (gates several hundred feet from the building), there is a security fence, and all vehicles entering are searched. They have no problem with racial profiling, so different vehicles and passengers are searched differently. Even ambulances, bringing in critical patients are stopped, the side door opened, interior looked at, then allowed to proceed. The guards know most, if not all of the ambulance personnel in the area, so it is rarely more then a cursory check.

There is a scary video on youtube of a Palestinian ambulance being stopped at a checkpoint before entering Israel (patient loaded), and a robot removing the mattress on the stretcher, and finding that it is loaded with explosives.

 

[VentMedic]

There is a scary video on youtube of a Palestinian ambulance being stopped at a checkpoint before entering Israel (patient loaded), and a robot removing the mattress on the stretcher, and finding that it is loaded with explosives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khqeDKtHXQE

 

[mikie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khqeDKtHXQE

Thanks Vent; that was very interesting! The IDF had good reason to do such an extensive search.

I only wish I had those robots to help move the stretcher around.

 

[PapaBear434]

I've only had two incidents with security guards, both at the mall. Once, a girl feel down the escalator. No, she didn't fall for hours (badum BUM!) But the security guards decided to pick her up and carry her over to the bench by the fountain, not holding her head, even after they were pretty sure she lost consciousness. When we tried to take custody, even at the patients desire to go to the hospital, they didn't want to let us because "...we have it under control." Just wanted to play the hero, I guess. Maybe they thought they were going to drive her to the hospital. I don't really know WHAT they were thinking they were going to do.

Second time was a kid that did some shoplifting, ran from the guard, and tripped. Smacked his head on the edge of one of those coin press machines. Nice bleed on his head, contusion, and one eye (just the right one) kept wanting to roll back in his head. We are boarding him, getting ready to take him, and the guards decide we aren't taking him anywhere because they want him turned over to the police, not us. We tell him that the police are going to meet us at the hospital, but a head injury like this needs to be looked at ASAP. They actually tried to block the path of the stretcher as we tried to take him out.

My partner finally got a compromise and told one of them to ride with us, so he can make sure we weren't just going to set the kid free outside. He acted all the cop, until the police actually showed up and threatened all sorts of public endangerment charges on him. I don't think anything came of it, but the guard was obviously terrified of the cop yelling at him. Turns out he was a volunteer EMT-I in the same system as us, only at a different station, so he didn't care for the prospect of some unarmed security guard with no medical training blocking a major medical emergency for the sake of a stolen $20 bottle of cologne.

Other than those two instances, though, security guards have been nothing but helpful. I usually don't give names at gates, but I will tell them what address we are looking for to expedite us getting there. Just say something like "We have a medical emergency at apartment 121, can you tell us how to get there quick?" Not once have I had a problem getting in. They will usually drive their little cars or give us good directions there. A lot of times they will help, like the other day when we had a 32-week pregnant woman going into labor. My partner was getting her ready to go, and I was downstairs getting the stretcher ready. I waved him over, he helped me get the stretcher down, held it so the patient could sit, and carried the bag back to the ambulance for us. Then he helped us get out of the apartment/townhouse complex to the main road, as the entire complex was a bit of a maze if you didn't know your way around.

I think anyone in any job has the potential to be a jerk if you take your job so seriously that you get on a power trip. So long as people on both sides remember that we are all in the job of helping people, looking out for their well being, and using common sense, I think we'll all be just fine.

 

[imurphy]

I have to agree, security guards are more than helpful most of the time. We always vividly remember the few times that they are on their power trips.

On some of my side jobs I've done work at large events and they've always been good. I'm sure it's happened to you too where you are so happy to have security there to part the way for you to bring through your patient and equiptment. I remember at a large event (like 200K people!) the security gave us a 20 meter perimeter for us to work, and a clear path for us to go in and leave through. Now 20 meters may not seem much, but remembering that this is standing room only and everyone pushed together at a concert, they did great work. We're always happy for them to have our back, and they know if they get injured who to go to.

One such thing that comes to mind as an above and beyond idea was when I felt our tent was not secure enough from the drunken people. About an hour after I asked for help, they fenced off our area with 5 meter high fences and while that was happening had a security guard at our tent, from their already over-streched personnell.

You;ll find the guys that are usually the problem are gung ho and brand new, so I give them some leyway. It always helped after I became the head of health and safety at the events, and just went to the security chief (who answered to me!!) and told them off the record to have a talk with them!

 

[daedalus]

Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes. Heck that fact has even been on the news. Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts. Why get onto them for trying to do their job?

This is actually another great point for all of us to keep in mind. It is not that difficult to steal or otherwise purchase an ambulance. Perhaps the federal government should come up with a system credentialing for all public safety and EMS personnel with a single, nation ID card.

 

[firecoins]

This is actually another great point for all of us to keep in mind. It is not that difficult to steal or otherwise purchase an ambulance. Perhaps the federal government should come up with a system credentialing for all public safety and EMS personnel with a single, nation ID card.

yes but than you Conspiracy theorists complaining about national government.

Emergency responders and others who work with ambulances should be credentialed.

 

[imurphy]

yes but than you Conspiracy theorists complaining about national government.

Emergency responders and others who work with ambulances should be credentialed.

But, on the terrorist note, if they really want to you can pick up a plastic card printer for like 3-400 and make very convincing ID's so no problem with that. Any number of real looking IDs. Hell, for 1000 you can get one that imprints holograms etc.

So, in fact a national ID card will only make it easier if they have a template to work off.

 

[daedalus]

yes but than you Conspiracy theorists complaining about national government.

Emergency responders and others who work with ambulances should be credentialed.

But its exciting for me! The more the government does, the more suspicious I become

BTW, I firmly believe in being denied entrance to a hosptial if you cannot produce company or county ID.

I do not know if its just the Los Angeles area, but everyone just seems to have a chip on their shoulders while at work. My points in my first post were not really to illustrate the guard's actions, but attitudes. It was the attitude of a "we do not care bout your patient, but we like to give you a hard time anyways" that shook me up. If they were acting under legitimate reasons while detaining a CCT crew, they escaped me. Vent, if you were held at the doors of a hospital on a critical transfer for more than 10 minutes, what would you have done?

 

[daedalus]

But, on the terrorist note, if they really want to you can pick up a plastic card printer for like 3-400 and make very convincing ID's so no problem with that. Any number of real looking IDs. Hell, for 1000 you can get one that imprints holograms etc.

So, in fact a national ID card will only make it easier if they have a template to work off.

But a thousand different county and state IDs makes it even easier because than you do not even have to copy a card, just make one up and tell some one its from [insert far away place]. With federal ID, anyone anywhere could scan it to check your credentials. (boy, I am setting one up for those conspiracy guys)

 

[firecoins]

But, on the terrorist note, if they really want to you can pick up a plastic card printer for like 3-400 and make very convincing ID's so no problem with that. Any number of real looking IDs. Hell, for 1000 you can get one that imprints holograms etc.

So, in fact a national ID card will only make it easier if they have a template to work off.

Security is never perfect. There is no doubt that anyone can buy ID equipment and fake IDs. NYS driver's licenses are made well above the normal ID making equipment are are very difficult to fake. They are far better than other DLs I have seen including NJ licenses. You can never be perfect but well made IDs are a step in the right direction.

 

[VentMedic]

Vent, if you were held at the doors of a hospital on a critical transfer for more than 10 minutes, what would you have done?

First: our arrival would be relayed by our dispatch or whoever is coordinating the patient transfer. We often work with security at other hospitals, especially the large ones, to have immediate elevator access or to prevent us from getting lost.

Second: What were the security guard's "demands" he was making of you to gain entrance? We always carry contact numbers of the cath lab or whatever unit we are transporting to and from just for these situations or in case of some transfer screw up to verify location. It just takes a minute to confirm the location and it announces your arrival to the awaiting team to open whatever other security doors. The contact number also should be readily available in the CCT team's notes to alert the cath lab or ICU of a change in patient condition which may warrant a diversion to the ED or another unit for stabilization.

So, instead of your CCT nurse pitching a fit, he/she should have had the numbers readily available to confirm where the patient is going and let the security officer see that everyone gets to where they are supposed to be going. Lack of preparation on the part of the CCT RN does not necessarily make the Security Guard wrong.

In some places like NYC, LA and Miami, you are dealing with large hospitals that have numerous ICUs and cath lab suites. Getting you to the proper location is an important part of a Security Officer's job. He/she can not just allow you to wander the halls even if you "think" you know where you are going.

CCT or other transport teams often lose much more valuable time because they "think" they know where they are going and get lost than they lose arguing with a Security Guard.

 

[firecoins]

In some places like NYC, LA and Miami, you are dealing with large hospitals that have numerous ICUs and cath lab suites. Getting you to the proper location is an important part of a Security Officer's job. He/she can not just allow you to wander the halls even if you "think" you know where you are going..

This is basically true. They will just tell you where to go get the initial door and get the elevator. After that we are on our own. Usually if you work in certain places the securtiy guards know who you are and you know who they are. The hospital where I trained has colored lines on the floor to critical locations.

 

[imurphy]

Security is never perfect. There is no doubt that anyone can buy ID equipment and fake IDs. NYS driver's licenses are made well above the normal ID making equipment are are very difficult to fake. They are far better than other DLs I have seen including NJ licenses. You can never be perfect but well made IDs are a step in the right direction.

I accept the point, Hell if you ever saw the Irish DL's you'd see how easy they are to fake!!

But the point is these ID's are made every day by the DMV, so they can be copied. Just might take a bit more time. Or, on the DMV note, in the news this week, a DMV employee was caught making fake ID's!

 

[daedalus]

First: our arrival would be relayed by our dispatch or whoever is coordinating the patient transfer. We often work with security at other hospitals, especially the large ones, to have immediate elevator access or to prevent us from getting lost.

Second: What were the security guard's "demands" he was making of you to gain entrance? We always carry contact numbers of the cath lab or whatever unit we are transporting to and from just for these situations or in case of some transfer screw up to verify location. It just takes a minute to confirm the location and it announces your arrival to the awaiting team to open whatever other security doors. The contact number also should be readily available in the CCT team's notes to alert the cath lab or ICU of a change in patient condition which may warrant a diversion to the ED or another unit for stabilization.

So, instead of your CCT nurse pitching a fit, he/she should have had the numbers readily available to confirm where the patient is going and let the security officer see that everyone gets to where they are supposed to be going. Lack of preparation on the part of the CCT RN does not necessarily make the Security Guard wrong.

In some places like NYC, LA and Miami, you are dealing with large hospitals that have numerous ICUs and cath lab suites. Getting you to the proper location is an important part of a Security Officer's job. He/she can not just allow you to wander the halls even if you "think" you know where you are going.

CCT or other transport teams often lose much more valuable time because they "think" they know where they are going and get lost than they lose arguing with a Security Guard.

This was not my run, but three co-workers. I was told they delayed our unit's entrance so they could pat down and use a metal detector wand over the patient. Something to keep in mind, he was sedated via propofol and intubated with an evolving MI, who had arrested a few times at the sending hospital. Our CCT nurse is a very competent and cool headed CEN/CCRN and NP. She has worked in many hospitals for over 17 years, so when she tells me that it was unbelievable, I believe her.

 

[Veneficus]

Never once have I had a problem with hospital security.

I have had a few encounters with private security guards at apartment buildings and communities who took their role (which is to call the police when they see something suspicious, not protect the compound from bin laden) a little too seriously. Usually I just remind them that interfering with an EMS professional in the course of their duty is a felony in my state with mandatory jail time and they can take it up with the real LEOs, they usually just open the gate/door/whatever.

 

[VentMedic]

This was not my run, but three co-workers. I was told they delayed our unit's entrance so they could pat down and use a metal detector wand over the patient. Something to keep in mind, he was sedated via propofol and intubated with an evolving MI, who had arrested a few times at the sending hospital. Our CCT nurse is a very competent and cool headed CEN/CCRN and NP. She has worked in many hospitals for over 17 years, so when she tells me that it was unbelievable, I believe her.

Maybe if the RN would have let the Security Officers do they job instead of pitching a fit, the patient could have gotten through sooner. Regardless of how some conditions appear, the safety of the medical staff is of importance. This is truly not an unusual procedure in many city hospitals. We do have metal detectors in our EDs, including the resuscitation and trauma rooms, since it is not a fun experience to have a gun or knife be found by accidentally discharging or cutting someone during the lifesaving attempts. Security and/or the LEOs will be there to secure all weapons.

Do you know how many weapons are brought into a hospital by patients being transported by ambulance? Granted it is not your job to search everyone but some of these weapons should be found during an assessment. Thus, the need now for metal detectors and Security Guards or LEOs at the door. Prisioners may also be secured to the OR table during surgery depending on their risk to others. Is it likely they will come out of the sedation to do harm? Probably not but minimizing risk to staff or reminding them not to let their guard down is still vital. And, depending on the level of risk to either the staff or patient, there will be COs or LEOs present inside and outside of the OR.

 

[daedalus]

Interesting points, indeed something to consider. I know that our nurse takes a very very negative stance against violence in the ED, so perhaps this is something to remind her of. I would hope that a security guard delaying a critical patient's entrance to the hospital would explain his reasoning as well as you have.

 

[VentMedic]

Interesting points, indeed something to consider. I know that our nurse takes a very very negative stance against violence in the ED, so perhaps this is something to remind her of. I would hope that a security guard delaying a critical patient's entrance to the hospital would explain his reasoning as well as you have.

You did state the Security Officer did offer an explanation which was reasonable.

I was told they delayed our unit's entrance so they could pat down and use a metal detector wand over the patient.

The RN should have accepted the fact this is a hospital policy with the safety of medical staff, including her, in mind. No one likes surprises especially when they may present a danger. By her lack of understanding of security issues, she could easily have endangered other staff members, maybe not with this patient but with others where this same situation may come up. It truly doesn't take that long to use a metal detector provided they don't have some medical provider pitching a fit and distracting them from their job.

Even medical staff is subject to metal detectors as we also have the walk throughs at some of our entrances.