Amberlamps916
Droog
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I couldn't have said it better myself.....about to finish internship and move on up to $14.11 an hour. PA school can't come soon enough.
RFI. Anyone know what's up with AMR in NorCal.?
- Thread starter SandpitMedic
- Start date
I couldn't have said it better myself.....about to finish internship and move on up to $14.11 an hour. PA school can't come soon enough.
Rano Pano
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Did anyone read this, and learn something new about the profession? I know I didn't, and wondered what the point of posting it was.
You didn't say anything that anybody with more than a week in the profession wouldn't know.
Private EMS pay is horrible - Correct
A EMT isn't a career - Correct
Striking is most likely a losing battle, and the public's support would be great - Correct
You see these things - accept it - and come here to rant how you're bettering yourself without waiting on changes in the company. My problem isn't the game plan. The majority of EMT's/Medic's are working to get out of their current positions - myself included. My problem is the rant part. You're nothing special. You, and I both are taking the road more traveled. Then what's my point? Don't come here posting a bunch of rhetoric about private EMS when there's a group of individuals willing to take a risk. We all know how this normally goes, but they've had enough, and are fighting for some sort of change. My hats off to them for that.
Ps - That's why I think you sound like a kid. Kids have a habit of stating information everyone already knows in a attempt to cover up the fact they have nothing new to add.
DesertMedic66
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You may know all of the information that was already stated but it doesn't mean everyone does.
To your statement that I made bold, you may want to review the Forum rules:
Rano Pano
Forum Lieutenant
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My very first sentence was genuine.
As for my last part violating forum rules, yeah. It probably does, but it was in response to one very large rude post. Does it cancel it out? Let me know...
DesertMedic66
Forum Troll
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I didn't find his post to be rude at all. It was a very large post but not rude.
OP
OP
SandpitMedic
Crowd pleaser
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I think I struck a nerve. I do apologize if you perceived my post as rude; perhaps you also know that is best for one in our profession to have thicker skin. Especially, with each other. Generally, I find that those who "know it all" know everything except how annoying they are.
Enjoy the rest of your day sir.
Enjoy the rest of your day sir.
NomadicMedic
I know a guy who knows a guy.
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Hey all... Stay civil and on topic. Please don't make me say it again.
TransportJockey
Forum Chief
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There, I made you say it again
Rano Pano
Forum Lieutenant
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I don't think I personally could of replied back to your statements any nicer. I tend to go directly at the heart of what I'm trying to convey. I want to make a point, and hopefully be responded back with one. I don't dance around searching for passive aggressive "zings", or play dumb about what I write. We may be a little different this way. I thought it unfair for you to call out a group for doing things different then how you think they should be done. That's why I posted. I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this, and for not wanting to be responsible for getting a good thread closed I'm fine with leaving this as is.
To each his own.
You have a good day as well.
Placermedic, TheLocalMedic, rebeltech, fire87I2 and anyone else who's working in the affected area...
Keep your heads up and try not to let the disgraceful way you are being treated by other so-called "professionals" get to you. There are plenty of people in EMS, union and non-union alike that understand why you are doing this, and what it means to your members. There are plenty of people who understand that nobody wanted it to come to this point or is taking the possibility of a strike lightly.
Remember that there are plenty of people who understand how much time, effort, money and sacrifice has gone into organizing a union and then forcing AMR to negotiate a fair contract. There are plenty of people who understand what it takes to get the benefits that you have, and how hard it can be to keep them at the same level, let alone prevent any decreases.
It is sad that the most vocal people are ones that don't understand this, and will look at a group that has improved their situation as one that should be hated and spat upon instead of one that should be looked to for inspiration and possibly emulation. It is highly unfortunate that this field draws so many people to it who look at anyone who holds a better position as someone worthy of contempt and are only capable of taking a very narrow view of a given situation
It is sad that the most vocal people, by their own admission don't know what is happening, or even how they will be used, reimbursed or treated by the parent company if they are used as replacements for your local but are ready to go to because it is in their own interest.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that you can negotiate a fair contract without striking.
Keep your heads up and try not to let the disgraceful way you are being treated by other so-called "professionals" get to you. There are plenty of people in EMS, union and non-union alike that understand why you are doing this, and what it means to your members. There are plenty of people who understand that nobody wanted it to come to this point or is taking the possibility of a strike lightly.
Remember that there are plenty of people who understand how much time, effort, money and sacrifice has gone into organizing a union and then forcing AMR to negotiate a fair contract. There are plenty of people who understand what it takes to get the benefits that you have, and how hard it can be to keep them at the same level, let alone prevent any decreases.
It is sad that the most vocal people are ones that don't understand this, and will look at a group that has improved their situation as one that should be hated and spat upon instead of one that should be looked to for inspiration and possibly emulation. It is highly unfortunate that this field draws so many people to it who look at anyone who holds a better position as someone worthy of contempt and are only capable of taking a very narrow view of a given situation
It is sad that the most vocal people, by their own admission don't know what is happening, or even how they will be used, reimbursed or treated by the parent company if they are used as replacements for your local but are ready to go to because it is in their own interest.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that you can negotiate a fair contract without striking.
TheLocalMedic
Grumpy Badger
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Well said, and greatly appreciated sentiments.
Our ultimate goal throughout this whole process is to advance our profession while putting our patients ahead of profits. In many ways the "you get what you pay for" aphorism holds true in regards to paying a workforce. I don't necessarily believe that EMS cannot be a career. However, if you want to build and keep a skilled and dedicated workforce you need to provide them with the incentive to stay.
Although the fight isn't easy, and the corporation has a lot of resources on its side, we should not just roll over and accept lower wages. We must continue to strive to be paid fairly for what we do, or we will continue to lose good, dedicated people to other careers in fire and other branches of medicine. Imagine a system where EMS had both the pay and respect that fire and law enforcement does. Isn't that something we should strive towards rather than heaping scorn on those who look forward to a better, more equitable future.
And @ DesertEMT66, just because a person disagrees with your position doesn't make them "rude". I recall calling you out on making several of your own inflammatory statements. Part of holding a discourse means hearing opinions that you disagree with. But your vocal disagreement doesn't invalidate their point of view, nor does arbitrary name calling validate your own.
DesertMedic66
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My rude statement was not because someone disagreed with me. I quoted the forum rules about an actual rude post (calling someone a child or a kid is in fact rude regardless if I agree with it or disagree).
The mods asked us to drop it or the thread will be closed. If you would like to go on please feel free to shoot me a PM.
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OP
OP
SandpitMedic
Crowd pleaser
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I wanted to think a little before responding to your "zingers" and what not...
Listen, I am not in the camp of purposely trying to undermine any ones efforts to better our profession and the way it is perceived. Upon evaluating my initial statements I can see how one could come to that conclusion based on some of the context. EMS with all of its intricacies is very dynamic and it is near impossible to point the finger at one sole thing we could do to enhance the profession. As stated, there are a multitude of reasons why we are where we are, why we are perceived the way we are, and why we are treated the way we are. One could bring up pay, hours, benefits, equipment, etc. They all play a part in our situation.
Certainly, I am not bashing you for all of the work you guys have done to get your piece of the pie tasting sweeter than mine, nor for trying to keep it that way. My comments about EMS in its current state (in agencies I have worked for) being more or less a dead end gig are solely my opinion. I feel like with standards such as ours that each of us should want to strive to be something better; I believe that instead of trying to take down the Goliath that is corporate America/greed your time would better be spent improving upon yourself. Obtain a higher education, gain some life experience and obtain a better career. If your dream is to stay in private EMS forever then do the same self building and become someone with the credentials to lead and someone that can think of other ways to get your goals accomplished. A gang of employees is not going to change the mind of a CEO with a team of analysts, legal folks, and an endless financial stream. I can respect that if you cannot clearly see that or are naive enough to believe you can then I will not call you a child, rather tell you good luck and suggest other means as I have. I'll also tell you that getting terminated from the largest EMS company in the nation will greatly hinder future employment opportunities in EMS/fire/PD/gov careers so tread lightly. My opinion, along with others on this board differ from yours greatly apparently.
Hardy harhar @ "passive aggressive zings." Lol! Really now, my comment was to address that you are clearly on a war path to get what you want "for EMS," yet you seem rather narrow sighted in your efforts. As stated, it is a very complicated dynamic and combined with the "enemy" you face you just don't seem to get it. Perhaps it is I who doesn't get it... However, seeing how most of this board has been singing along with me I think I'm on the right track. Don't think I hate my job either, I do not; I am just motivated to get where I'm going rather than fighting a losing battle or by using the same means as you. "Never engage the same enemy for too long, or he will adapt to your tactics" -von Clausewitz.
EMS is what it is... life is also what it is. It isn't the 1920s any longer. Money rules the world, and Unions are big business money making machines these days... Your **insert corporation here** will get its way or they will find someone other than you who will do the job...your "scabs." Is that an ugly picture? Am I a pessimist? Perhaps...or perhaps I just see things in a different light, perhaps I've seen this battle lost 20 times before. I believe that's just me being a realist and on my own team to accomplish my own goals while trying to sway you better yourself as well.
Jeeze, I've just kind of been rambling..I sure hope that I haven't regurgitated ideas that "everyone" already knows or not brought any "new ideas" or vantage points to the table. MY previous post was to try to get my point across about the big picture, hopefully you see my point without being offended this time- and those in your camp. If you don't like my opinions well... Only Judy can judge me, bro.
A pessimist will tell you that the glass is half empty.
An optimist will tell you that the glass is half full.
A paramedic will tell you that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
It is what it is gentleman and ladies. It is what you make it to be at the same time. Enjoy it, grow, learn, live... but don't sell yourself short in believing you can change the world alone instead of adapting to be successful. Our generation (I'm 26) has a very "I deserve it all" entitled mentality where every one gets a trophy and ice cream just for showing up to the game... I'm here to tell you that life is much more demanding than just that. Our line of work is no different. I do agree with your points... I want more too, but I'm not going to get it on a private. Go forth and conquer.
Listen, I am not in the camp of purposely trying to undermine any ones efforts to better our profession and the way it is perceived. Upon evaluating my initial statements I can see how one could come to that conclusion based on some of the context. EMS with all of its intricacies is very dynamic and it is near impossible to point the finger at one sole thing we could do to enhance the profession. As stated, there are a multitude of reasons why we are where we are, why we are perceived the way we are, and why we are treated the way we are. One could bring up pay, hours, benefits, equipment, etc. They all play a part in our situation.
Certainly, I am not bashing you for all of the work you guys have done to get your piece of the pie tasting sweeter than mine, nor for trying to keep it that way. My comments about EMS in its current state (in agencies I have worked for) being more or less a dead end gig are solely my opinion. I feel like with standards such as ours that each of us should want to strive to be something better; I believe that instead of trying to take down the Goliath that is corporate America/greed your time would better be spent improving upon yourself. Obtain a higher education, gain some life experience and obtain a better career. If your dream is to stay in private EMS forever then do the same self building and become someone with the credentials to lead and someone that can think of other ways to get your goals accomplished. A gang of employees is not going to change the mind of a CEO with a team of analysts, legal folks, and an endless financial stream. I can respect that if you cannot clearly see that or are naive enough to believe you can then I will not call you a child, rather tell you good luck and suggest other means as I have. I'll also tell you that getting terminated from the largest EMS company in the nation will greatly hinder future employment opportunities in EMS/fire/PD/gov careers so tread lightly. My opinion, along with others on this board differ from yours greatly apparently.
Hardy harhar @ "passive aggressive zings." Lol! Really now, my comment was to address that you are clearly on a war path to get what you want "for EMS," yet you seem rather narrow sighted in your efforts. As stated, it is a very complicated dynamic and combined with the "enemy" you face you just don't seem to get it. Perhaps it is I who doesn't get it... However, seeing how most of this board has been singing along with me I think I'm on the right track. Don't think I hate my job either, I do not; I am just motivated to get where I'm going rather than fighting a losing battle or by using the same means as you. "Never engage the same enemy for too long, or he will adapt to your tactics" -von Clausewitz.
EMS is what it is... life is also what it is. It isn't the 1920s any longer. Money rules the world, and Unions are big business money making machines these days... Your **insert corporation here** will get its way or they will find someone other than you who will do the job...your "scabs." Is that an ugly picture? Am I a pessimist? Perhaps...or perhaps I just see things in a different light, perhaps I've seen this battle lost 20 times before. I believe that's just me being a realist and on my own team to accomplish my own goals while trying to sway you better yourself as well.
Jeeze, I've just kind of been rambling..I sure hope that I haven't regurgitated ideas that "everyone" already knows or not brought any "new ideas" or vantage points to the table. MY previous post was to try to get my point across about the big picture, hopefully you see my point without being offended this time- and those in your camp. If you don't like my opinions well... Only Judy can judge me, bro.
A pessimist will tell you that the glass is half empty.
An optimist will tell you that the glass is half full.
A paramedic will tell you that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
It is what it is gentleman and ladies. It is what you make it to be at the same time. Enjoy it, grow, learn, live... but don't sell yourself short in believing you can change the world alone instead of adapting to be successful. Our generation (I'm 26) has a very "I deserve it all" entitled mentality where every one gets a trophy and ice cream just for showing up to the game... I'm here to tell you that life is much more demanding than just that. Our line of work is no different. I do agree with your points... I want more too, but I'm not going to get it on a private. Go forth and conquer.
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Let's better everyone
I, for one, appreciate your comments and taking the time to express your opinion, which I value along with everyone else.
You arguments are valid, although I would like to add other opposing arguments can be valid too. I understand your position that it is useless to fight a juggernaut, and I somewhat agree with you. My problem is when you advocate we all should seek greener pastures and not fight. Many of your statements have some flavor of a military background; forgive me if I am wrong, but let me ask this:
Who will stand and fight? While others bail, there must be those that stand their ground, even against a larger enemy. Especially against a larger enemy. Is the point to win? Yes, but is it also important to make a statement, to say enough is enough, to inspire others. History is rife with these "failed" battles. It's what gives others faith, hope, and strength to do the right thing, sometimes at their own expense.
You mentioned you are 26; and that your generation feels entitled. When you bail you become part of that group. I am 44 and have reached the point where it's time to stand and fight. It's a long battle but age gives you the patience to stay and try to make it right, even for those that choose not to fight
If not us, who? If not now, when?
I, for one, appreciate your comments and taking the time to express your opinion, which I value along with everyone else.
You arguments are valid, although I would like to add other opposing arguments can be valid too. I understand your position that it is useless to fight a juggernaut, and I somewhat agree with you. My problem is when you advocate we all should seek greener pastures and not fight. Many of your statements have some flavor of a military background; forgive me if I am wrong, but let me ask this:
Who will stand and fight? While others bail, there must be those that stand their ground, even against a larger enemy. Especially against a larger enemy. Is the point to win? Yes, but is it also important to make a statement, to say enough is enough, to inspire others. History is rife with these "failed" battles. It's what gives others faith, hope, and strength to do the right thing, sometimes at their own expense.
You mentioned you are 26; and that your generation feels entitled. When you bail you become part of that group. I am 44 and have reached the point where it's time to stand and fight. It's a long battle but age gives you the patience to stay and try to make it right, even for those that choose not to fight
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Rano Pano
Forum Lieutenant
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Good Post
SandpitMedic,
I read through your post once, and skimmed a second time to see if there was something I had missed.
I agree with ALL the points you made. I'm the same age, and have the same views on EMS. I'm not in anyway affiliated with the strike other than turning down the offer to go up.
I don't have a problem with a scab if they genuinely thought about it, and decided to do it. I've read multiple posts here about going up (including yours) that I didn't feel the need to respond too. I jumped all over your particular post because how it was said. That post had a lot of the same points, but I felt it was belittling those who are going on strike. Part of why I think it's important to support the North is because they're striking despite the points you've made. I've never done it to the extent of my job, and nor do I know if I would, but haven't you ever been so fed up a situation you'd rather try to change it, and most likely lose than just stand pat? By no means on the same level as these guys, but I have, and it's why I hope this ends with some sort of positive for them. I don't know where you're located, but I 100% believe this type of debate will come to SoCal eventually.
I've debated posting this because I know it's not as well written as it could be, and you already stated undermining NorCal wasn't your intent. I'm posting it to possibly clarify what my role in the strike is, and why I took offense in the first place.
SandpitMedic,
I read through your post once, and skimmed a second time to see if there was something I had missed.
I agree with ALL the points you made. I'm the same age, and have the same views on EMS. I'm not in anyway affiliated with the strike other than turning down the offer to go up.
I don't have a problem with a scab if they genuinely thought about it, and decided to do it. I've read multiple posts here about going up (including yours) that I didn't feel the need to respond too. I jumped all over your particular post because how it was said. That post had a lot of the same points, but I felt it was belittling those who are going on strike. Part of why I think it's important to support the North is because they're striking despite the points you've made. I've never done it to the extent of my job, and nor do I know if I would, but haven't you ever been so fed up a situation you'd rather try to change it, and most likely lose than just stand pat? By no means on the same level as these guys, but I have, and it's why I hope this ends with some sort of positive for them. I don't know where you're located, but I 100% believe this type of debate will come to SoCal eventually.
I've debated posting this because I know it's not as well written as it could be, and you already stated undermining NorCal wasn't your intent. I'm posting it to possibly clarify what my role in the strike is, and why I took offense in the first place.
OP
OP
SandpitMedic
Crowd pleaser
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Norca,
I completely agree with the sentiment that opposing opinions and arguments can be valid. I am also aware that some are so vested in the fight that must stay in it. Your agreement with me about it being fruitless to battle a juggernaut hints that you are fighting for your pride- to not just "lay there and take it" rather than because you believe you can actually win. I could be completely wrong, and I do not mean that as an insult. It might be salt in the wound, yet it was read that way.
If not you, I don't know... Not me. I feel just going to work, adding onto my resume, gaining experience, and looking forward to where I'm going with a few alternate "just in case" plans while helping some folks in need along the way. Saving lives and kissing babies 24/7 you know? I don't feel like I'm bailing on your agenda, but rather I'm working on mine.
If not now.... Well... Its been fought over time and time again throughout the nation. I don't feel entitled to anything. I will work hard to get what I want.
As I said, I do get fed up with the BS... I get so mad sometimes thinking about how much better it could be for all of us... including how it could be if we were rid of the idiot type of people in our industry such as those who post photos posing with dead animals in the back of their rig.... (cross thread points?) So many things that would make us better as an industry. I often day dream of the latest LED big TV and PS4 and trips to Costa Rica and the Caribbean cruises I could take and not living paycheck to paycheck eating top ramen if I got paid more. JEEZEEEEEEE!!! ARHGHGHGGH! Then I focus on getting to the position in which those things will no longer be just a dream but effortlessly obtainable. Anyone can go back to school, can bridge to another career. I realize some of those are too far in, late in the game, at a ripe age in which their dog is stuck in the fight. And I mean not to insult them... just voice my idea to those who aren't yet in that position.
This is not a CA specific debacle... I'm not in SoCal... this is an indusrty wide issue in the US of A.
I value your positions, yet I feel like we have not necessarily opposing mindsets, just different agendas.
I completely agree with the sentiment that opposing opinions and arguments can be valid. I am also aware that some are so vested in the fight that must stay in it. Your agreement with me about it being fruitless to battle a juggernaut hints that you are fighting for your pride- to not just "lay there and take it" rather than because you believe you can actually win. I could be completely wrong, and I do not mean that as an insult. It might be salt in the wound, yet it was read that way.
If not you, I don't know... Not me. I feel just going to work, adding onto my resume, gaining experience, and looking forward to where I'm going with a few alternate "just in case" plans while helping some folks in need along the way. Saving lives and kissing babies 24/7 you know? I don't feel like I'm bailing on your agenda, but rather I'm working on mine.
If not now.... Well... Its been fought over time and time again throughout the nation. I don't feel entitled to anything. I will work hard to get what I want.
As I said, I do get fed up with the BS... I get so mad sometimes thinking about how much better it could be for all of us... including how it could be if we were rid of the idiot type of people in our industry such as those who post photos posing with dead animals in the back of their rig.... (cross thread points?) So many things that would make us better as an industry. I often day dream of the latest LED big TV and PS4 and trips to Costa Rica and the Caribbean cruises I could take and not living paycheck to paycheck eating top ramen if I got paid more. JEEZEEEEEEE!!! ARHGHGHGGH! Then I focus on getting to the position in which those things will no longer be just a dream but effortlessly obtainable. Anyone can go back to school, can bridge to another career. I realize some of those are too far in, late in the game, at a ripe age in which their dog is stuck in the fight. And I mean not to insult them... just voice my idea to those who aren't yet in that position.
This is not a CA specific debacle... I'm not in SoCal... this is an indusrty wide issue in the US of A.
I value your positions, yet I feel like we have not necessarily opposing mindsets, just different agendas.
TheLocalMedic
Grumpy Badger
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I don't believe the people who are standing up for themselves (and it's not a smattering of individuals, it's an entire region) are "too deep" or have too much invested not to fight. Many are younger or are new to EMS, and many have second and third jobs. These people are united in fighting to advance the profession by saying "NO" when AMR proposes to cut our pay to show an increasing profit margin. To get a little corny, we're fighting for what is right.
AMR isn't the unstoppable "juggernaut" some have made it out to be, and it certainly isn't our intention or in our interest to tear the company down. We want them to come to the table to negotiate in good faith with the workforce. That isn't an impossible goal. Nor would a strike be unfelt by the corporation at large. A strike isn't a pesky mosquito bite, no matter how large the company.
Proposing that we just accept the fact that EMS can't be a career is defeatist logic. Why shouldn't we try to make a positive change? The best thing we can do is not focus on where we are, but rather where we are headed.
SandpitMedic, while you may not share your generation's attitude of entitlement, to quote Ron White, "That boy's got a lot of quit in him". Remember what they say about when the going gets tough? I don't see you as being one of the tough who get going.
AMR isn't the unstoppable "juggernaut" some have made it out to be, and it certainly isn't our intention or in our interest to tear the company down. We want them to come to the table to negotiate in good faith with the workforce. That isn't an impossible goal. Nor would a strike be unfelt by the corporation at large. A strike isn't a pesky mosquito bite, no matter how large the company.
Proposing that we just accept the fact that EMS can't be a career is defeatist logic. Why shouldn't we try to make a positive change? The best thing we can do is not focus on where we are, but rather where we are headed.
SandpitMedic, while you may not share your generation's attitude of entitlement, to quote Ron White, "That boy's got a lot of quit in him". Remember what they say about when the going gets tough? I don't see you as being one of the tough who get going.
DrankTheKoolaid
Forum Deputy Chief
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Not really sure anyone said "EMS" can't be a career as it is a lifelong career for many including myself. Being an "EMT, as in basic EMT" is not meant to be a career.
OP
OP
SandpitMedic
Crowd pleaser
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To clarify, this. Oh, and places where they pay medics $12/hr.
I think you got that very right. The gist of all your posts in this thread seems to be "I deserve it all...and don't want to work for it. So I'll change jobs and/or careers until I get somewhere where everything is given to me."
Thankfully, there are people out there who are willing to work to improve their situation, even if it means they have to sacrifice, because it will eventually pay off for both them, and those who follow.