Raise of Minimum Wage

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Hunter

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So what is your solution?

Don't raise the minimum, raise taxes on people earning more, because even them have had some sort of assistance from the government, and they aren't going to turn down Social Security to help everyone else just because they have more than enough once they retire.
 

BeachMedic

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Any solution would require the people who are really in charge..(e.g. people with a crap ton of money) to care about the rest of us.

Don't see it happening.
 
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Clare

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Don't raise the minimum, raise taxes on people earning more, because even them have had some sort of assistance from the government, and they aren't going to turn down Social Security to help everyone else just because they have more than enough once they retire.

Oh please, yes, bloody rich people they are so unmoral and like hide all their money in trusts and overseas slush funds and have some slick number cruncher helping them to pay the tiniest fraction of tax possible.

The Government here does not see a problem with "legitimate tax avoidance" which I think is awful.

Go to some job out South or even here in the nicer parts of Auckland and you will see people struggling, on minimum wage or not, they are either poor or the new "working poor" and they can barely scrape by yet these mega wealthy people are off on their boat having a nice day in the Hauraki Gulf and even if they did pay the proper amount of tax they'd still be super rich.

Makes me sick.
 

TB 3541

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Don't raise the minimum, raise taxes on people earning more, because even them have had some sort of assistance from the government, and they aren't going to turn down Social Security to help everyone else just because they have more than enough once they retire.

When is enough enough though? In 2009 the top 10% of income earners paid 70.47% of this country's income tax revenue. The top 50% paid 97.75% of taxes. That means that half of this country's workers paid for only 2.25% of all income tax revenue. Don't you think there is something wrong with this?

The reality of this all is that with motivation and the proper amount of determination, ANYONE can succeed in this country. Nobody has ever been told that they can't work harder. Why should we punish success (with higher taxes) and reward laziness (with gov't handouts)?
 

Hunter

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When is enough enough though? In 2009 the top 10% of income earners paid 70.47% of this country's income tax revenue. The top 50% paid 97.75% of taxes. That means that half of this country's workers paid for only 2.25% of all income tax revenue. Don't you think there is something wrong with this?

The reality of this all is that with motivation and the proper amount of determination, ANYONE can succeed in this country. Nobody has ever been told that they can't work harder. Why should we punish success (with higher taxes) and reward laziness (with gov't handouts)?

It's not a punishment, living in this country is what gives you the opportunities. I don't agree with government hand outs however, that's probably one of the biggest reasons we are where we are, too many people abuse the system, too many people abuse welfare, food stamps, medicare, medicaid, disability, social security, ect. I despise people who abuse the system they are scum and just as bad as big corporations who are only in it for themselves. we could probably cut spending in all those programs in half if no one abused them and everyone legitimately needed them. Which in turn would lead to less taxes being needed.
 

BeachMedic

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When is enough enough though? In 2009 the top 10% of income earners paid 70.47% of this country's income tax revenue. The top 50% paid 97.75% of taxes. That means that half of this country's workers paid for only 2.25% of all income tax revenue. Don't you think there is something wrong with this?

The reality of this all is that with motivation and the proper amount of determination, ANYONE can succeed in this country. Nobody has ever been told that they can't work harder. Why should we punish success (with higher taxes) and reward laziness (with gov't handouts)?


TB you have to look at where all the money is in this country. It's not in the bottom half.

To simplify things...If there is a guy with a pie that is 40 feet long/wide and he gives a 10% of his pie away and there is a guy with a 3 inch sliver of pie and he gives away 10% of his pie...Who is better off after giving that 10%? Obviously the mega-wealthy pay more in taxes. They have all the damn money to begin with. Don't you think there is something wrong with the fact that all the money in the country has been funneling straight up to the rich class over the last 30 years? Remember when Reagan started trickle down and it had the complete opposite effect?

ANYONE can succeed and ANYONE can fail in this country. NOT EVERYONE will. I can tell you there are a lot more people failing than succeeding. That doesn't mean they didn't work any less hard or had less drive than the guy who was lucky enough or who had the right connections to make it.
 
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Veneficus

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So what is your solution?

nationalize all education

edit:

and cut defense spending by at least 50%

especially weapon systems R&D.

Quit buying high tech weaponry that can't kill men in caves.
 
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TB 3541

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TB you have to look at where all the money is in this country. It's not in the bottom half.

To simplify things...If there is a guy with a pie that is 40 feet long/wide and he gives a 10% of his pie away and there is a guy with a 3 inch sliver of pie and he gives away 10% of his pie...Who is better off after giving that 10%? Obviously the mega-wealthy pay more in taxes. They have all the damn money to begin with. Don't you think there is something wrong with the fact that all the money in the country has been funneling straight up to the rich class over the last 30 years? Remember when Reagan started trickle down and it had the complete opposite effect?

ANYONE can succeed and ANYONE can fail in this country. NOT EVERYONE will. I can tell you there are a lot more people failing than succeeding. That doesn't mean they didn't work any less hard or had less drive than the guy who was lucky enough or who had the right connections to make it.

With all due respect, I fully understand how a flat tax works. I agree, you are correct. The data shows that wealth distribution is highest in top earners, however, understand that net wealth includes debts, which the lowest % of earners has a chronic problem with in this country. People in the lowest earning brackets still buy flat-panel TV's and other frivolous items on credit. That doesn't give them the right to take somebody else's earnings.
 

Veneficus

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I can't tell if you are serious or trolling any more.

Very serious, the US spends way too much on defense.

Considering that is known throughout the world that education is the way out of poverty for all but a very few, private education that gets "government" money in the forms of guaranteed loans, grants, and private loans that cannot be discharged creates an economic barrier to education and omits any price control.

Shutting down fox news probably wouldn't hurt either :)
 

TB 3541

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Very serious, the US spends way too much on defense.

Considering that is known throughout the world that education is the way out of poverty for all but a very few, private education that gets "government" money in the forms of guaranteed loans, grants, and private loans that cannot be discharged creates an economic barrier to education and omits any price control.

Shutting down fox news probably wouldn't hurt either :)

Defense spending is provided for in the Constitution while education is not. Also, fortunately, the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights prohibits the censorship of Fox News.

I can see that no amount of argument on my part will convince you to see my side of this, and the reverse is true as well. So let's agree to disagree, before the mods lock this thread.
 

BeachMedic

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With all due respect, I fully understand how a flat tax works. I agree, you are correct. The data shows that wealth distribution is highest in top earners, however, understand that net wealth includes debts, which the lowest % of earners has a chronic problem with in this country. People in the lowest earning brackets still buy flat-panel TV's and other frivolous items on credit. That doesn't give them the right to take somebody else's earnings.

With all due respect, the wealthy can pay a higher tax rate and still afford their frivolous private jets and flat screen TVs that come out of the floor.

If the poor were paid a wage above the poverty line they wouldn't have to rely on credit and government assistance as much. They might even be able to afford a decent education.

To me, it doesn't make sense that the top 10% earners have the majority of all wealth in this country. How much harder are they working than a manual field laborer or construction worker? Or Paramedic? I mean power lunches, expense accounts, and board meetings must be 10x as exhausting as a 0300 cardiac arrest.

What constitutes, "earning" a billion dollars? It's not, "hard work" or "drive". Plenty of people have those. Most just get paid less for it.
 

TB 3541

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With all due respect, the wealthy can pay a higher tax rate and still afford their frivolous private jets and flat screen TVs that come out of the floor.

If the poor were paid a wage above the poverty line they wouldn't have to rely on credit and government assistance as much. They might even be able to afford a decent education.

To me, it doesn't make sense that the top 10% earners have the majority of all wealth in this country. How much harder are they working than a manual field laborer or construction worker? Or Paramedic? I mean power lunches, expense accounts, and board meetings must be 10x as exhausting as a 0300 cardiac arrest.

What constitutes, "earning" a billion dollars? It's not, "hard work" or "drive". Plenty of people have those. Most just get paid less for it.

Perhaps it would be best to stop worrying about what others have, and instead, enjoy what you have. If you don't like what you have, then get a better paying job, a second job, an investment, or something else. Yes, that may take years of college education, sacrificing your day or days off, or selling an asset or not having cable TV to come up with investment capital, but if your desire to succeed exceeds your desire to stay in your comfort zone, then you will indeed, succeed.
 

mycrofft

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When the minimum wage is raised, the ones who benefit are those making mniimum wage.
 

Shishkabob

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Minimum wage goes up, costs more to have employees. Costs more to have employees, prices of goods and services go up (at a faster rate than normal inflation)

Raising minimum wage does more harm than they left is willing to admit.
 

BeachMedic

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Perhaps it would be best to stop worrying about what others have, and instead, enjoy what you have. If you don't like what you have, then get a better paying job, a second job, an investment, or something else. Yes, that may take years of college education, sacrificing your day or days off, or selling an asset or not having cable TV to come up with investment capital, but if your desire to succeed exceeds your desire to stay in your comfort zone, then you will indeed, succeed.


I'm right on track and where I want to be. Thank you though. What you're saying is nice but not only is it not true for everyone, it doesn't counter the fact that Big Business and greed are destroying this country's way of life and subjugating more and more people to poverty each year. Did you know that corporate america is making more money than it ever has? All that while laying everyone off, cutting benefits, sending jobs overseas, and shortening hours.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/weekinreview/09powell.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Nobody, and I mean nobody gets rich on their own. They succeed on the backs of their employees below them. The person who paved the roads for them. The guy who constructed the building their business is in. Pay them a wage that has kept up with increase in cost of living over the last 40 years. Do that and try to refrain from raises the prices on everyone else.

That is the solution. Greed wont let it happen though. Can't cut into the record profits and growing piles of cash they have laying around or the golden parachutes they attach to their buddies' backs. Corporate America much rather let the government subsidize everyone instead.

I've said my peace on this topic as well. lol
 
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EpiEMS

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Anybody who tells you that (without specifying any assumptions), raising the minimum wage is "good" is stretching the truth. The same applies to anybody who tells you (without specifying any assumptions) that raising the minimum wage is "bad."

There is no simple answer. That being said, the most simplistic, justifiable answer I can think of to the question of "what happens when the minimum wage rises" is "It depends." It depends on the elasticity of labor demand, the market structure of the industry, etc. etc.

In the aggregate, I think the data suggests that it will be somewhere between slightly harmful and slightly beneficial, probably slightly harmful. Some jobs will be eliminated, as the MPL of the worker is below the now-raised minimum wage, but some workers will benefit.

If anybody wants a real quick reference, I suggest this: http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/Hamermesh_Labor_Demand.pdf

However, I do believe that the minimum wage should have been indexed to inflation *years* ago.
 
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mycrofft

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The real value in adjusted dollars of the minimum wage is declining. ON top of that, some states basically have none

Minimum wages by state law
http://progressivestates.org/sync/images/dispatch/minimumWageMap.png
minimumWageMap.png



Median incomes;
census_2006income.gif


Children in poverty:



us-child-poverty-rate-by-state-map.jpg


See any correlation?
 

JPINFV

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To simplify things...If there is a guy with a pie that is 40 feet long/wide and he gives a 10% of his pie away and there is a guy with a 3 inch sliver of pie and he gives away 10% of his pie...Who is better off after giving that 10%? Obviously the mega-wealthy pay more in taxes. They have all the damn money to begin with. Don't you think there is something wrong with the fact that all the money in the country has been funneling straight up to the rich class over the last 30 years? Remember when Reagan started trickle down and it had the complete opposite effect?

Everyone needs to have skin in the tax game. It's always easier to say, "Pay me more" or "They should pay more taxes" when you're talking about someone else's money.
 

46Young

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So what is your solution?

Fair tax.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=HowFairTaxWorks

This way, everyone who buys anything past basic necessities cannot avoid paying into the system. If you want to save and invest, you can. If you choose to buy an expensive car, buy a big home, designer clothes, you get banged over the head for some $$$. That's the way it should be. How many stories have we heard in the ghetto where you roll into an apartment in some decrepit tenement, and inside is nice furniture, the huge flat screen, etc. Then they hand you a Medicaid card.

From the illegal aliens, to anyone working off the books while receiving assistance, to the alcoholic buying booze at 12:00 Sunday afternoon, they all now have to pay their part into the system.

Basically, if all you pay for is the true necessities of life, you pay little to no tax. If you want to treat yourself to some treats or a dinner out, if you want to buy a computer, a car, some bling bling, you're going to pay a heavy tax. That's the most fair way to go about it, IMO.
 
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