Raise of Minimum Wage

[46Young]

Everyone needs to have skin in the tax game. It's always easier to say, "Pay me more" or "They should pay more taxes" when you're talking about someone else's money.

See my last post on Fair Tax.

 

[Veneficus]

I like the idea of sales tax better than income tax.

That way, as 46 said, you are taxed based on your spending, which encourages savings.

 

[abckidsmom]

I like the idea of sales tax better than income tax.

That way, as 46 said, you are taxed based on your spending, which encourages savings.

Absolutely.

 

[Hunter]

I like the idea of sales tax better than income tax.

That way, as 46 said, you are taxed based on your spending, which encourages savings.

I like this much better than overall taxes...

 

[JPINFV]

I like the idea of sales tax better than income tax.

That way, as 46 said, you are taxed based on your spending, which encourages savings.

Except economies run on spending and circulation of currency. Spending can be bad for the individual, but as a whole, it's good for everyone as a group. As much as people despise the mega rich when they do things like buy yachts, those yachts put a lot of people to work who otherwise might not have work.

 

[BeachMedic]

Except economies run on spending and circulation of currency. Spending can be bad for the individual, but as a whole, it's good for everyone as a group. As much as people despise the mega rich when they do things like buy yachts, those yachts put a lot of people to work who otherwise might not have work.

I don't know if that number is comparable to the number of people they put out of work by sending jobs to third world countries.

 

[Veneficus]

I don't know if that number is comparable to the number of people they put out of work by sending jobs to third world countries.

I think JP is correct, except that we now live in a global economy.

Unfortunately the days of earning a middle class life with minimal education are over. Because of globalization, skilled and unskilled labor wages in the US are realigning to their actual value.

Changes in minimum wage will not change that.

About the only thing that will change that I can see is an anti-import position, giving goods produced in the country a financial benefit than good shipped to the country.

While that inhibits trade, it does lessen trade deficits. Unfortunately, It doesn't work so well with consumerism and forces people to accept "lower" quality of life. Like not getting the new iphone every year or 2 or latest electronics.

At this point I doubt Americans would accept any decline in consumerism. Certainly they will not choose it. Which is why big box stores do so well.

 

[BeachMedic]

I think JP is correct, except that we now live in a global economy.

Unfortunately the days of earning a middle class life with minimal education are over. Because of globalization, skilled and unskilled labor wages in the US are realigning to their actual value.

Changes in minimum wage will not change that.

About the only thing that will change that I can see is an anti-import position, giving goods produced in the country a financial benefit than good shipped to the country.

While that inhibits trade, it does lessen trade deficits. Unfortunately, It doesn't work so well with consumerism and forces people to accept "lower" quality of life. Like not getting the new iphone every year or 2 or latest electronics.

At this point I doubt Americans would accept any decline in consumerism. Certainly they will not choose it. Which is why big box stores do so well.

Well like you said, the key is getting access for everyone to an affordable and decent education.

 

[Veneficus]

Well like you said, the key is getting access for everyone to an affordable and decent education.

Yea, except I didn't make it up, it has been known around the world for centuries. It is a fundamental component of every wealthy country.

But in the US there seems to be a prevailing attitude that it is not needed because of a handful of success stories or perhaps simply the desire to deny the obviousness of the truth by those who do not have education.

I always love the "destruction of the middle class" argument. Look at the low class standard of living in places like Sweden. They have almost no middle class to speak of. But the difference between wealthy and poor is very narrow too.

I think the US predicament comes from the fantasy that everyone can be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Wheel]

Yea, except I didn't make it up, it has been known around the world for centuries. It is a fundamental component of every wealthy country.

But in the US there seems to be a prevailing attitude that it is not needed because of a handful of success stories or perhaps simply the desire to deny the obviousness of the truth by those who do not have education.

I always love the "destruction of the middle class" argument. Look at the low class standard of living in places like Sweden. They have almost no middle class to speak of. But the difference between wealthy and poor is very narrow too.

I think the US predicament comes from the fantasy that everyone can be the exception rather than the rule.

Do you mean to tell me I'm NOT a special snowflake?

 

[Veneficus]

Defense spending is provided for in the Constitution while education is not.

I believe you are incorrect sir.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[BeachMedic]

Yea, except I didn't make it up, it has been known around the world for centuries. It is a fundamental component of every wealthy country.

But in the US there seems to be a prevailing attitude that it is not needed because of a handful of success stories or perhaps simply the desire to deny the obviousness of the truth by those who do not have education.

I always love the "destruction of the middle class" argument. Look at the low class standard of living in places like Sweden. They have almost no middle class to speak of. But the difference between wealthy and poor is very narrow too.

I think the US predicament comes from the fantasy that everyone can be the exception rather than the rule.

Well you hit the nail on the head Ven.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?hp&_r=0

The loss upward mobility in our country. The poor in our country are worse off than the poor in most other advanced countries. If you're looking for the, "Land of Opportunity" look elsewhere, because the U.S. is too low on the list these days. The Myth of the American Dream has been outsourced.

At least until we fix our broken systems like healthcare, education, and revolving door prison scheme. You know, even the playing field and give everyone a better chance.

 

[Shishkabob]

At least until we fix our broken systems like healthcare,

Not a federal system, leave it to the states per the 10th.

education

Agreed, but the bigger issue is kids not caring, like in the ghetto. We still have some of the top colleges in the world.

and revolving door prison scheme.

Simple. Do away with the 3 strike rule, implement the 2 strike rule. First felony can be played off as a mistake in some circumstances... the second one cannot. Doing a second strikeable felony proves you are of no use to society and we need to get rid of you.

 

[BeachMedic]

Agreed, but the bigger issue is kids not caring, like in the ghetto. We still have some of the top colleges in the world.

Yeah but unlike the rest of the world our top colleges saddle people with thousands and thousands of dollars of debt.

That and the high price keeps a lot of people from attending these schools.

 

[Shishkabob]

That and the high price keeps a lot of people from attending these schools.

One step at a time. Highschool is free, yet 10% of blacks and 15% of hispanic kids drop out, with a good portion never even obtaining a GED.

 

[Veneficus]

One step at a time. Highschool is free, yet 10% of blacks and 15% of hispanic kids drop out, with a good portion never even obtaining a GED.

So what is your solution to change the socioeconomic and cultural causes of this?

 

[Shishkabob]

All I know is that the New Deal has had 80 years to do it's thing, and it hasn't.


Just like the immigration reform... oh sure it sounds good in theory, makes illegals actually legal and they'll pay taxes, except for one thing liberals like to ignore: Illegals will not be paying in to the system due to the current tax code, but will be legally entitled to more welfare programs.



It's like Obamas argument for Obamacare: More people paying for insurance makes it cheaper for the rest of us... yet he doesn't want everyone to do their fair share of taxes. We wants the fortunate to pay while the rest skate on by.

 

[JPINFV]

I don't know if that number is comparable to the number of people they put out of work by sending jobs to third world countries.

...so instead they should just put their money in the bank, where under a sales tax the government gets nothing and the primary beneficient is the investment bankers? Limiting their ability to make purchases isn't going to change the business practices short of going all John Galt and disappearing.

 

[JPINFV]

While that inhibits trade, it does lessen trade deficits. Unfortunately, It doesn't work so well with consumerism and forces people to accept "lower" quality of life. Like not getting the new iphone every year or 2 or latest electronics.

It's also not like the other countries aren't going to retaliate. Sure, cheap assembly line consume crud like electronics aren't produced in the US. That doesn't mean we don't export a ton and that also doesn't mean that people would support higher prices for everyday goods. Protectionism isn't some panacia to our trade issues.

 

[BeachMedic]

We wants the fortunate to pay while the rest skate on by.

I wouldn't call someone living in poverty and paycheck to paycheck just, "skating on by".

Show me some statistical evidence of nationalized healthcare being a detriment to any of the modern world countries. I want real evidence. Anecdotal, "My auntie had to wait in line for medicine" stories are worthless.

I want you to explain to me how someone breaking an arm or leg and then going thousands of dollars in to debt because of it makes sense. Or mom getting cancer, or any number of terrible medical scenarios that happen to real people every day that just ruins them financially. Or why we are paying over $100 dollars for prescriptions you can get in Canada for $15?

No offense Linuss, but I find it hard to understand why you have so much sympathy for people making over $450,000 (the tax increase people) a year but none for large chunk of your countrymen wallowing in poverty.