Patient with CCW

[Forrest]

After reading on XDtalk.com in the CCW section for the last hour, this question popped into my head all of a sudden and I figured this would be the best place to get answers.


Seeing as how it's illegal to have a firearm on hospital premisses, what do you do if you're PT being transported has their CCW (or not) and is "packing heat"? Say they forget they're carrying, don't realize it's illegal to carry into a hospital, or are incapacitated to notifty you...what would YOU do?

A: Contact PD to obtain weapon
B: Have PT contact family to come pick the weapon up
C: Leave it in the squad and deal with it after PT handed over to ER
D: (Just for s**ts and giggles) Ignore it/keep your mouth shut and leave it up to the PT to be faced with the consequences

 

[DesertMedic66]

A. If they have a license then PD will gladly give it back. If they don't have the license well then PD will probably keep the gun that they shouldn't be carrying anyway.

As for us if we have an unconscious patient we go thru all their pockets and look for ID. So we should see it then.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Your not doing a very good physical exam on an unresponsive patient if you don't find a concealed weapon...

But with the options you gave us I'd go with option A.

 

[Akulahawk]

Remember, it is not illegal in all states to carry in a hospital... that being said:
All of the hospitals that I have transported to had a procedure where the hospital security would take the weapon and store it until the owner could retrieve it upon discharge or someone authorized by the owner could retrieve it. Should I become aware of the CCW status of my patient, I would probably alert the hospital staff to have security on hand upon our arrival for a property issue. On scene, I would ask the patient if there was someone that can take the weapon and secure it.

This subject isn't addressed in any of the protocols that I'd worked under...

Also, in some states, no permit or license is required to carry concealed. Be aware that sometimes, unlicensed carry is not illegal. That being said, contacting LE or hospital security may be an excellent thing to do for temporary safe storage.

 

[Tommerag]

Say they forget they're carrying, don't realize it's illegal to carry into a hospital, or are incapacitated to notifty you...what would YOU do?

Seeing as how I carry quite often, I think its fairly certain that someone is not going to forget they are carrying. But I think A would be the best answer.

 

[bstone]

Hospital security usually has a place to lock up the guns. In an ER I used to work in they had a policy that cops couldn't have guns on them, but had to lock them up with hospital security.

 

[JPINFV]

A: Contact PD to obtain weapon
B: Have PT contact family to come pick the weapon up
C: Leave it in the squad and deal with it after PT handed over to ER
D: (Just for s**ts and giggles) Ignore it/keep your mouth shut and leave it up to the PT to be faced with the consequences

Option A: If I had time depending on the patient's condition and how comfortable the crew is around firearms.

Option B: If I had time and a family member or trusted friend was immediately available (in terms of time to arrival at scene). Again, depending on the patient's status.

Option C: If for reasons of time, A or B cannot be achieved, and someone in the crew was familiar enough with firearms to clear it (or at minimum, make sure the safety was on), then this.


As an alternative, if the patient is not altered and is cooperative, the best location for the firearm would be for it to remain in its holster. The hospital should have a procedure for handling legally carried weapons by patients who come in through the ED via EMS.

Also, to note, unless the hospital is a "government facility," then CCW in Ohio is not expressly forbidden. It depends on the hospital's policy, provided appropriate signage is available.

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/...c65926/2009-Concealed-Carry-Laws-Booklet.aspx

 

[Forrest]

I really wasn't sure what I would do, So I do appreciate all of your responses!

 

[Akulahawk]

Also, should the patient be completely awake and aware, it's possible that any attempt to remove the weapon from the holster that isn't agreed to by the patient may result in someone getting a severe beating. If someone attempts to grab my weapon and I haven't been asked about it first, I guarantee that I'm going to go completely mid-evil on whoever grabbed my weapon. Why? There's no way I'm going to let someone take my weapon away from me... Doing so just may put my life in very big danger.

Just something to also consider...

 

[mycrofft]

yawn

http://home.nra.org/#/home

 

[mycrofft]

OK seriously.

1. Cite "the law" making it illegal to carry a concealed weapon into hospital. It's a very poor (read that lethally stupid) idea, and some cities may actually have one like that, but it's not like E=MC squared or other immutable laws.
2. Head to toe assessment means find the gun.
3. How often does this really happen?
4. If a person is in your vehicle with a gun, isn't there a protocol at your company?
5. Me? I'd pull over and unarse the vehicle and wait for LE to come take him/her in control.
Bad idea: take the weapon and try to clear it. Or play with it. Or keep it. Or throw it out the window. Or rob a pizza joint.

Why do we keep getting gun posts outside the military section?

 

[JPINFV]

Bad idea: take the weapon and try to clear it. Or play with it. Or keep it. Or throw it out the window. Or rob a pizza joint.

I'd argue that anyone halfway competent with firearms should be able to, at a minimum, make the little red painted area around a lever or button go bye bye when the patient is incapacitated. With a legal CCW, I want someone in control of the firearm, preferably the patient since the less it's manipulated the better. However even just having the safety on when it needs to be removed (if transport can't be delayed) makes the situation better.

Why do we keep getting gun posts outside the military section?

What does CCW have to do with the military?

 

[mycrofft]

I vote no one can post about guns without having fired in necessity on another human.

Myself included.
Accidental (careless) discharges don't count.

Nor do cartoon horses.

What do firearms have to do with EMS in general? Most of the people posting about them are maybe curious, virtually ALL males (most under the age of majority I guess) but mostly just gassing about stuff they don't have a serious stake in. Other websites are all about guns and firearms and etc., this one is about the practice of helping people medically in regards to emergencies, primarily pre-hospital.

I just have a burr under my saddle. Pun intended.

 

[JPINFV]

The operational aspect of treating a patient who is legally armed is a valid topic for an EMS forum. I think the huge problem with the topic, though, is that there's going to be a difference of opinion of people who are comfortable around firearms and those who are not. I don't feel uncomfortable with someone familiar with firearms manipulating them because if the basic safety rules are used (finger off the trigger, not pointed at anything you're willing to destroy, and assume all firearms are loaded until proven otherwise, especially a CCW). Someone who is unfamiliar with firearms has no business touching one that is on the patient's body.

 

[mycrofft]

I disagree with the premise, to get off track here.

While I support the concept of the right for anyone to say anything here, it's like my irritating kid cousin Joey popping into a recount of last week's football game to tell us how cool the tackle was that snapped the QB's leg. I'm exercising my right to voice my impatience with people who want to hypothesize and dream about gun handling/gun rights in an EMS forum.

And it's been jawed to death.

How about some folks just post what their employers' policies and protocols are in this respect? And discuss their gun fantasies or appreciation in the EMS LOUNGE or MILITARY section.
Signed,
grumpy old guy:glare:

 

[JPINFV]

Dear Grumpy Old Guy,
At least this isn't a thread about EMTs practicing CCW on the clock.

 

[mycrofft]

If I recall, there have been replies.

Or don't some of these "tactical medic" threads count?

 

[JPINFV]

Well, the current JEMS Connect thread on this has reached the absurd, "But what if someone chases my partner out of the house, knocks me out, and when I come to he's over me and about to stab me with a knife. A CCW would be useful then, wouldn't it?"

"What about the Tueller Drill?"

"Derp."

 

[DesertMedic66]

This thread has to do with EMS. Carrying a weapon doesn't involve military. And it's a problem that we could be faced with (I know it's rare but it could still happen). I haven't seen any protocols that mention anything about a patient carrying a gun so this thread made me think what would be the best thing to do (in my opinion). I think it is a really good topic.

And this topic is different from other ones (that I have seen). The other threads are about EMS workers with a CCW. This one is about what would you do if you found a patient with a CCW or just a gun in general on their person.

 

[Akulahawk]

While I support the concept of the right for anyone to say anything here, it's like my irritating kid cousin Joey popping into a recount of last week's football game to tell us how cool the tackle was that snapped the QB's leg. I'm exercising my right to voice my impatience with people who want to hypothesize and dream about gun handling/gun rights in an EMS forum.

And it's been jawed to death.

How about some folks just post what their employers' policies and protocols are in this respect? And discuss their gun fantasies or appreciation in the EMS LOUNGE or MILITARY section.
Signed,
grumpy old guy:glare:

This is one of those things that somehow never makes it into an employer's policy/procedure handbook outside of "The employee shall not carry a weapon at work" and may actually rarely be found in EMS system protocol/policy manuals either. I would imagine that most of the time, it's assumed that your patient had a gun on them because LE has already secured it...

Now I'm quite familiar with firearms, including those that are carried concealed. If I can remove the firearm and the holster as a unit from the patient, the trigger never gets close to being touched and the firearm stays in a generally safe configuration. If I can't figure it out, and the patient can't tell me... it stays where it is.

In California, only about 45,000 people have an active CCW, out of about 36 million? The chances of an EMS worker coming into contact with someone that has a legal CCW is very remote. You'd be more likely to come into contact with someone that isn't carrying legally. Most of the Police Officers I've ever talked to have NEVER found that these people use actual holsters. IMHO, if you find someone carrying without a holster, alert law enforcement...