Patient with CCW

[usalsfyre]

Option B is my preferred choice, followed by option A. Remember getting law enforcement involved may cause extra expense/hassle when it comes time to get the gun back depending on the jurisdiction. Also never assume a LEO will be able to unload and clear a firearm if it's not the same make/model as their service arms.

Due to extensive past experience in this area, there's probably not a firearm I would run across that I couldn't unload and clear. However, I wouldn't do it if I could avoid, as it's not really covered by job description and I'm now stuck having to secure the thing.

 

[mycrofft]

No protocols about being bitten by a rat also I bet.

I'm just tired of the infantile tone most firearm posts have. And how does firearms tactics have anything to do with medicine except as a mechanism of injury?
Seriously, how realistric a fear or professional concern is it that someone will rise off the litter and cap you? Why don't we see this as a topic in every medical and EMS convention?
Other than maybe "Hollow Jacket sustained release copper, p.r., prn ad lib"

 

[JPINFV]

In California, only about 45,000 people have an active CCW, out of about 36 million? The chances of an EMS worker coming into contact with someone that has a legal CCW is very remote. You'd be more likely to come into contact with someone that isn't carrying legally. Most of the Police Officers I've ever talked to have NEVER found that these people use actual holsters. IMHO, if you find someone carrying without a holster, alert law enforcement...

Very true. However EMS is probably more likely to come in contact with someone doing unloaded open carry (since no permit is required for that) and freak out. The unfortunate thing is those also tend to be the more hard core gun nuts (albeit there is a political point in the issues with California's may issue CCW system) and almost always have video/audio recording immediately available. I can see an incident with a bystander doing UOC turning bad real quickly, especially in terms of public relations.

 

[DesertMedic66]

I'm just tired of the infantile tone most firearm posts have. And how does firearms tactics have anything to do with medicine except as a mechanism of injury?
Seriously, how realistric a fear or professional concern is it that someone will rise off the litter and cap you? Why don't we see this as a topic in every medical and EMS convention?
Other than maybe "Hollow Jacket sustained release copper, p.r., prn ad lib"

Actually if we get bit by a rat it is an on the job injury. You would contact a supervisor and then be treated at the hospital (for my company at least). Just because this isn't a "major" problem for EMS doesn't mean it shouldn't be put up for people to put their opinions on it. And "firearm tactics" or patients carrying firearms in general has to do with............ Wait for it.......... Scene safety!!!! The back of the ambulance is still a scene and it should be made as safe as possible.

 

[mycrofft]

Bet there are scads more of folding knives being left on pt's.

Oh gosh now we're going to get into knives, then boots, then windshield punches... I said my bit, have a good one.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Oh gosh now we're going to get into knives, then boots, then windshield punches... I said my bit, have a good one.

There is probably alot more knifes being left on patients but you don't need a CCW to carry a knife. And the fact that this thread is about guns on a patient and not any other kind of "weapon" should keep it focused on patients with guns.

 

[JPINFV]

Actually if we get bit by a rat it is an on the job injury. You would contact a supervisor and then be treated at the hospital (for my company at least). Just because this isn't a "major" problem for EMS doesn't mean it shouldn't be put up for people to put their opinions on it. And "firearm tactics" or patients carrying firearms in general has to do with............ Wait for it.......... Scene safety!!!! The back of the ambulance is still a scene and it should be made as safe as possible.

The problem with this topic (along with armed EMS) is that it tends to pop up every 6 months or so.

 

[JPINFV]

There is probably alot more knifes being left on patients but you don't need a CCW to carry a knife. And the fact that this thread is about guns on a patient and not any other kind of "weapon" should keep it focused on patients with guns.

I don't need a permit in California to openly carry an unloaded firearm either. There's nothing legally stopping me (outside of the Unarmed Victim ("gun free") School Zones) from walking around with my shotgun either...

/legal!=intelligent?

 

[mycrofft]

But don't touch it.

Then you are "brandishing".

 

[mycrofft]

But don't touch it.

:wacko:Then you are "brandishing".

Weapon is a weapon, a knife can be more dangerous at arm's reach, certainly quieter.

Why doesn't my old Sasquatch poll get this much play?

 

[JPINFV]

[takes the bait]
Brandishing is a little more than "holding a gun in public."

 

[DesertMedic66]

The problem with this topic (along with armed EMS) is that it tends to pop up every 6 months or so.

I have seen many threads about EMS workers being armed. But this was the first time I saw a thread about just the patient "packing heat". It was a new topic to me so I thought I would chime in.

 

[Too Old To Work]

The problem with this topic (along with armed EMS) is that it tends to pop up every 6 months or so.

I've never seen it on an EMS forum, although I have seen the armed EMT thing all too many times. This actually pops up on firearms forums, where there is probably as much ignorance about EMS as most EMS workers have about firearms.

I think people in EMS over think this and don't know enough about firearms or firearms owners to really have an idea of what they are supposed to do. That's a generalization, I know and I know several EMS people who are also firearms owners. Still, like the population in general, EMS providers for the most part are not firearms owners or shooters. There is a lot of bad information out there.

It's important to understand that laws vary widely across the various states. What's legal in CA is not in MA and vice versa.

I think the most important thing to remember is that there are far more lawful firearms owners out there than you may realize. Some states require licenses for concealed carry, some don't, and some have no provisions in their law for concealed carry by people who are not police officers.

None of which is vital to know for us. What is vital to know is that a conscious, oriented person, who has an illness is going to be reluctant to give up his (or her) firearm to a complete stranger. If you explain to him or her why you don't feel comfortable having them armed, they'll probably be fine with leaving it somewhere where they can secure it, giving it to a police officer, or having hospital security hold on to it. Know that many hospital security people won't be comfortable with that and that THEY might call the police.

The conscious, but disoriented patient is the biggest challenge here. The military has long recognized that injured soldiers who are disoriented pose a threat to the medics and their fellow soldiers. As a result the first thing that the medic does is secure the weapons. This has been told to me by guys who have been downrange and who I know not to be BSers. The same goes for police officers, but an officer is injured the chances are very good that another officer will be there to secure the injured officers weapon.

If the patient is a civilian, then it's prudent to remove and secure any firearms you find. Than notify the police so they can secure them. I'd document that on my PCR so if the firearm goes missing, no one suspects that you might have taken it.

As to "clearing" a firearm, don't. It's not necessary to unload a weapon to make it safe. In fact, if you are not familiar with weapons trying to clear it can cause a negligent discharge, which is what you want to avoid. Also, if the firearm is part of a criminal investigation, clearing it inserts you into the chain of custody and can taint the evidentiary value of the firearm and ammunition.

Follow the four rules and you and everyone else will be safe.

1) All firearms are always loaded.
2) Don't point that muzzle of a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Know the target and what's behind it. (Doesn't apply in this situation)
4) Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
For EMS, that's keep you finger off the trigger.

Lawful firearms owners are among the most law abiding people there are. In some states, like MA, you have to be squeaky clean to get a License to Carry. Others, like Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona, don't require licenses for open or concealed carry. Some, like New Hampshire, allow open carry without a permit, but require a permit for concealed carry. As I said, laws vary widely.

The federal and state laws controlling sales of firearms are off topic and way too complex anyway, so I won't touch on them. Suffice it to say that criminals will get firearms if they want them, no matter what the law says. The lawful firearms owner will follow the law, no matter how stupid he or she may think they are.

Finally, don't assume that only men can be armed. The fastest growing demographic of firearms owners is women. Especially younger women.

 

[nemedic]

After reading on XDtalk.com in the CCW section for the last hour, this question popped into my head all of a sudden and I figured this would be the best place to get answers.


Seeing as how it's illegal to have a firearm on hospital premisses, what do you do if you're PT being transported has their CCW (or not) and is "packing heat"? Say they forget they're carrying, don't realize it's illegal to carry into a hospital, or are incapacitated to notifty you...what would YOU do?

A: Contact PD to obtain weapon
B: Have PT contact family to come pick the weapon up
C: Leave it in the squad and deal with it after PT handed over to ER
D: (Just for s**ts and giggles) Ignore it/keep your mouth shut and leave it up to the PT to be faced with the consequences

E: Whip mine out and say "Mine's Bigger".B)

 

[Forrest]

If only I actually felt compelled enough to make my status say "Sick of mycrofft" just to match his "Sick of gun virgins posts".

Thank you firefite and JPINFV, just because it's about guns does NOT mean it has to go under "tactical/military EMS". Where the heck do you get Military from talking about carrying a gun?!?!?

I too have read too many threads on here about "what kinda gun do you have?", "Would you carry at work?", "Who here shoots guns?", etc...But this is about what if the PATIENT has a gun (The people we treat as EMS providers for those of us who are too old to remember that, or realize that this site is to learn about how to better ourselves to treat the patient, and take care of them).

And as for the "gun virgins" part, I'd love to post a pic of my collection, target groupings, etc, but then I'm sure I'd have to hear you just sit there and complain even more...

 

[Too Old To Work]

And as for the "gun virgins" part, I'd love to post a pic of my collection, target groupings, etc, but then I'm sure I'd have to hear you just sit there and complain even more...

You'd only hear me complain about your superior quantity and quality of firearms. And probably better shooting skills.

 

[crazycajun]

You'd only hear me complain about your superior quantity and quality of firearms. And probably better shooting skills.

Same here. Working in the South EVERYBODY has a gun so it is no big deal.

 

[Akulahawk]

I don't need a permit in California to openly carry an unloaded firearm either. There's nothing legally stopping me (outside of the Unarmed Victim ("gun free") School Zones) from walking around with my shotgun either...

/legal!=intelligent?

As an aside: if the people under the white dome downtown get their way, unloaded open carry will soon only be legal in the same places that it's legal to loaded open carry. If that happens, and you're in an OK place to carry, you might as well carry it loaded because the restrictions against UOC and LOC will be the same.

In any event, the point is that everyone should know their local firearms laws well enough to know when you should freak out and when not to. Most of the time, you'll encounter someone armed with a folder knife than you will a gun. Folders are usually legal to conceal. In my case, I have a CCW, and while I might be carrying at any given time, I almost always have a knife on me, unless I'm going somewhere like the Capitol Building downtown or a commercial airport...

As a CCW holder, I generally won't want someone else touching my weapon if I can help it. If I'm with-it enough, I'd be willing to help secure it though. If not, call LE and have them secure it or call hospital security and they'll help secure it. As much as she'd hate it, I'd rather have my weapon released to my wife instead as that way I would not have to deal with the headache and paperwork of the "Law Enforcement Gun Release" (LEGR) process. Look for those avenues for safe storage and present them to the gun owner. Chances are, he (or she) will take you up on them, if they're able to.

 

[mycrofft]

Here's an idea

and no kidding. Invent a compact clearing barrel for an ambulance, and a little locker to store the weapon. Turn it over to LE or security, but get a witness-signed receipt, including serial number and make, etc.

 

[HotelCo]

Are they pointing it at me? No? Then I don't care. They may be exempt from Criminal Empowerment Zones, er excuse me.. Pistol Free Zones.

If they forget it, and they remember when they're in the ambulance, if we're not going to a hospital that has it's own police force, I'll contact PD and they'll take custody of it there.

If they're unconscious, and I find it in the ambulance, then I'll release it to a LEO only. No hospital security, no family members. LEO only.

Find it at the scene? "Hey, you might want to leave your pistol at home."