Off-Duty Response

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TreySpooner65

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Lets say that you are off duty and for the sake of this scenario you have a scanner in your personal vehicle. Your state does not have a duty to act law and you are not in uniform. You hear a call go out for a man down, not breathing. You recognize the address as less than 1 block away inside a fast food restaurant. The dispatcher did not indicate for units to stage.

The local FD and EMS agencies are busy today and you know that the units dispatched are probably 10 or more minutes away.

Do you go to the fast food restaurant?
 
An interesting question. Although this turns into a "doing a good turn" vs. "observing my off time" dilemma for me, the answer is pretty straight forward. For the sake of the scenario I would respond, and here's why:

- I've obviously nothing better to do as evident by listening in on the local radio traffic
- I've obviously been waiting for something like this for a long time since I have a scanner in my POV and have been listening to it long enough to anticipate local response times.
- All of the above point to a Ricky Rescue complex.
- No duty to act laws (Which I assume would allow me to be protected by Good Sam laws).
- This is a Ricky Rescue's dream!


In all seriousness, unless something happens right in front of me, and it is within my power to do something meaningful then I consider taking action. In this case, I'm hearing about it over the air, and may not have the full picture. "On the ground and not breathing" could mean full arrest, or it could be something completely different. With such uncertainty I would rather not risk racing down the street with my pocket mask and a pair of gloves while off duty. As a BLS provider (Which even Medics are when off-duty) what can I possibly offer that a 911 dispatcher can't instruct bystanders to do?
 
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This is the whacker version of the perfect storm.
 
TreySpooner65 said:
Do you go to the fast food restaurant?
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Nope. Call me an :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: but it's not my problem.

Like someone said, if someone drops and is pulseless and apneic in front of me I will absolutely do CPR/AED but you wont know I'm a medic until the responding crew shows up and starts talking to me.

I've been on the other side of this, having ricky rescue show up on my scene and it can be rather frustrating.
 
Two of my friends were on the medic unit that serves my area. They texted me, "we jut got dispatched to a cardiac arrest by your house." I knew they'd be about 6 to 8 minutes before they could get there, so I just sauntered down to see if I could lend a hand. :)

Not an arrest, in fact 'twas an intoxicated "drama mama".

That was my Ricky rescue moment for the year.
 
NVRob said:
Nope. Call me an :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: but it's not my problem.

Like someone said, if someone drops and is pulseless and apneic in front of me I will absolutely do CPR/AED but you wont know I'm a medic until the responding crew shows up and starts talking to me.

I've been on the other side of this, having ricky rescue show up on my scene and it can be rather frustrating.
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You are an :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: haha jk you told me to.
 
I went to my neighbor across the street when I seen two PD cars there, they've had problems before so I figured I'd see what's up. Turns out he just fell out of bed. Took his pulse and FD transported to a lvl 2 tc.
I have know. Him for about ten years and he's 85.
Doesn't some city in CA have an app that alerts CPR card holders and gives detailed info?
 
Achilles said:
I went to my neighbor across the street when I seen two PD cars there, they've had problems before so I figured I'd see what's up. Turns out he just fell out of bed. Took his pulse and FD transported to a lvl 2 tc.
I have know. Him for about ten years and he's 85.
Doesn't some city in CA have an app that alerts CPR card holders and gives detailed info?
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This app doesnt sound very "privacy" laws obedient. Also my phone doesnt know i am a cpr card holder (although it would be nice through since i have no idea where the card actually is.)

I am sure somebody in that restaurant knows cpr. Let it go and go home.
 
Achilles said:
I went to my neighbor across the street when I seen two PD cars there, they've had problems before so I figured I'd see what's up. Turns out he just fell out of bed. Took his pulse and FD transported to a lvl 2 tc.
I have know. Him for about ten years and he's 85.
Doesn't some city in CA have an app that alerts CPR card holders and gives detailed info?
Click to expand...


That is scary......

And I'd say neighbors and friends are a different matter entirely.
 
Nope. I continue on with my day and my plans.
 
Absolutely not. How would you feel if you had to call 911 and then out of nowhere some bro shows up out of nowhere and says he is here to help? I would tell him to pound sand in the kindest of manners.

It's one thing to come across something as it happens or to see a cop at your neighbor or friends house grab the medical kit from his cruiser. It is quite a different thing to self dispatch yourself to a call in which EMS is already coming. The patient requested an ambulance, not you.
 
TreySpooner65 said:
Lets say that you are off duty and for the sake of this scenario you have a scanner in your personal vehicle. Your state does not have a duty to act law and you are not in uniform. You hear a call go out for a man down, not breathing. You recognize the address as less than 1 block away inside a fast food restaurant. The dispatcher did not indicate for units to stage.

The local FD and EMS agencies are busy today and you know that the units dispatched are probably 10 or more minutes away.

Do you go to the fast food restaurant?
Click to expand...

The bottom line is what are you going to do if you respond? Aside from CPR, there isn't much a lay person with no equipment can do for a legitimate "man down" call.

It would be hard to justify your response. If you show up and identify yourself as an EMT then you are likely out of Good Samaritan Law coverage. If you identify yourself with a particular department then you are likely going to be in trouble when you go back to work.

Would the responders recognize you? Your in a public establishment, would the scene be safe...I know the cop in me would be giving you a very hard time if I saw you jump into the scene and begin working a patient if you were "off duty".

While morally you may want to help, you need to recognize that you can't save the world. Unless its a family member or friend, I am not going. That doesn't mean I wouldn't assist someone who collapsed in front of me, but any assistance I provide is limited to lay person first aid when I am off duty.
 
My advice is to take the scanner out of your car, take the jump out of your backseat, and unhook the light bar that i am sure you have on your roof.

Be happy going to work, doing a job, making a difference. Then go home and just be normal like everybody else does.
 
leoemt said:
If you show up and identify yourself as an EMT then you are likely out of Good Samaritan Law coverage. .
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I agree with most of what you said except for the above statement. I agree it is a bad idea to identify yourself as an emt or work for X service. People need to understand the laws of their state. In a previous thread someone posted a link to the Washington State good samaritan law showing the above comment is not true.
 
In my world, even though I'm the guy who always gets appalled at medics off-duty who scream they wouldn't dare, I think this is over-seeking.

Just the fact that you ascribe urgency to your part in it means you're mis-judging. It's REALLY not your call! That means you're most likely to slam into the responding ambulance as you try to fill in the gap.
 
Not on duty, not my call. I'm gonna go do whatever I was doing and not worry about the call
 
TreySpooner65 said:
Lets say that you are off duty and for the sake of this scenario you have a scanner in your personal vehicle.
Click to expand...
problem: if you are off duty, why are you driving around in your POV with a scanner?
TreySpooner65 said:
Your state does not have a duty to act law and you are not in uniform.
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even if you're in uniform, if you aren't at work, you don't have a duty to act, especially if you are off duty. it's bad PR (cue FDNY EMS dispatchers), but there is not obligation to do something.
TreySpooner65 said:
but no You hear a call go out for a man down, not breathing. You recognize the address as less than 1 block away inside a fast food restaurant. The dispatcher did not indicate for units to stage.

The local FD and EMS agencies are busy today and you know that the units dispatched are probably 10 or more minutes away.

Do you go to the fast food restaurant?
Click to expand...
absolutely not. 911 has been notified, the professionals/AHJ have the assignment, and are handling it appropriately.

it's one thing to walk into the mcdonalds and see the man laying there. its another thing to self dispatch to a location without proper equipment in a jurisdiction that isn't your own when you haven't been requested to go

either way, sounds like a bad idea from beginning to end.
 
Medic Tim said:
I agree with most of what you said except for the above statement. I agree it is a bad idea to identify yourself as an emt or work for X service. People need to understand the laws of their state. In a previous thread someone posted a link to the Washington State good samaritan law showing the above comment is not true.
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Someone posted the link because they thought it wasn't true here in WA.

The minute you identify yourself as a professional you enter a whole different standard in legal expectations.

It falls to the Reasonable Standard principle.

The exception being a volunteer who is within the scope of their department SOP's and the county MPD directives.

If you read RCW 4.24.300 which is our good samaritan law you will see that volunteers and professional medical providers acting WITHOUT compensation and in an official capacity (i.e. at a health clinic) will be covered. It does NOT protect an EMS worker who decides to render aid at an accident scene.

Like you said, it comes down to knowing your laws.
 
leoemt said:
Like you said, it comes down to knowing your laws.
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Spoken like a true cop and I couldn't agree more.

Personally, if you're off duty, mind your own business unless something happens right in front of you and there is something you can do to help other than be a hand to hold. Just my opinion.
 
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