Medications EM-B's can use.

Pablo the Pirate said:
well i think with the proper training just about anyone can give drugs. EMT-Bs are by no means stupid and they are highly trainable. Remember that all "Paragods" started out as "nothing better" than EMT-Bs.
Click to expand...

You are right I did start out as an EMT so I think I can speak with knowledge of the situation. If you are so smart of an EMT why don't you go to Paramedic school if you want to administer medications? I am always suspicious of an EMT who thinks they are smarter than a paramedic. I don't think I am smarter than a doctor or a nurse. I can train a monkey to give medications but he can't learn why he is giving them or why he shouldn't.

I am quite capable of saving my own A$$ even after I fix everything some EMT messed up. Funny I save the EMT's A$$ too.
 
Again, I refer to another response I posted (this can also apply to Should Basics Intubate)

Whenever you say, "I can do everything that a blank (Intermediate, Paramedic, RN, MD, etc) can except for (or but)" basically you are saying you are something that you are not.

It is a disclaimer in an attempt to garner credibility and respect. If you want to be the something you are trying to equal yourself to, then go to school. Otherwise, don't try to convince the rest of the world that you are something that you are not.

For example, if you are an EMT with special skills or EMT/I that can utilize 90% of the skillset of a Paramedic with only 50% of the education, who would you rather have treat you or your family?

You can train any lay person to start an I.V, intubate, decompress a chest or give any plethora of medications (training) versus teaching that person the who, what, where, when, why and how to come to the decision to do it (education). Period
 
Ridryder911 said:
You can train any lay person to start an I.V, intubate, decompress a chest or give any plethora of medications (training) versus teaching that person the who, what, where, when, why and how to come to the decision to do it (education). Period
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if I can buy that. The area I run in has very few calls. When we have more then ONE call at a time, we have a hard time getting volunteers to show up and get the second rig out the door. We've occassionally had residents show up on our front door several hours after a call we missed and complained to us about not showing up. Our Chief's response is usually something along the lines of, 'become an EMT-B and you wouldn't need us.' Usually they respond with something along the lines of, 'I can't / don't want to do that!' The point I'm trying to make, and was made in another thread a couple of days / weeks ago, is that not everyone is cut out for this line of work. You might be able to teach someone already in this line of work to start an IV, intubate, decompress a chest or give medications, but I don't think you can train any lay person off the street to do it.
 
Sure you can "train" anyone to do anything basically. As posted in other threads how obviously "easy it is to intubate, start IV's, etc" true the mechanism and skill is easy enough, heck even surgery is easy, I have snipped (cauterized) out appendixes, but actually having the knowledge behind the theory, knowledge of risks, all of the anatomy/pathophysiology behind the procedure as well as "potential" risks and treatment associated with this is why there are license and certifications. Unfortunately, EMS always wants to take short cuts in education and health care. That is why EMS in most health care realms is not really considered a "health care agency" rather a public service.

It goes back again back to the intent and interest in the person performing the procedure. As well the interest in that person to either get formal education or attend a CEU to just to get "trained" in it. Can these personnel be able to handle the situation when the "poop" hits the fan, when that simplistic procedure turns bad? What happens when that Basic intubates to only have that patient have a laryngospasm, or the cords has a chordial tumor ? Then, after wards whom is going to place the patient on the ventilator?

Shame on your Chief to be such an idiot! The first time my family had called for EMS and they were not aware of a "response" needed and had delay of several hours, you could name your town after my family member... volunteer or not! There is no justification or excuse for such blunt gross negligence! Does your town have an city attorney ? I wonder if they are aware of this? .. I bet not! Does he know there is legal implications by not responding.. remind him of the first rule in negligence is a Duty to Act .

If you can not offer the service then get the hell out of it.....no EMS is better than a half arse one. Scrap the existing one and at least start one that will actually respond. Has anyone made contact with neighboring communities for mutual aid ? I can see a long response in scarce remote mountainous area, plains, and yes very very remote areas, but hours before they were responded to?

More and more I explore U.S. EMS the more scarier it is!

If any of those family members want some extra cash, have them I.M. me, I'll be glad to testify against your Chief and service.

R/r 911
 
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OK if you don't like it get out.
 
wolfwyndd said:
The point I'm trying to make, and was made in another thread a couple of days / weeks ago, is that not everyone is cut out for this line of work. You might be able to teach someone already in this line of work to start an IV, intubate, decompress a chest or give medications, but I don't think you can train any lay person off the street to do it.
Click to expand...

You can teach anybody how to perform the mechanical skills necessary to do any of these procedures...


What you can't teach everyone is the knowledge of when to do them, why to do them, and most importantly, when NOT to do them. We've all seen the people with a new skill set so anxious to use them that they forget the basics of patient care (starting an IV before obtaining baseline vitals, etc...)

I believe that this is the education point that RidRyder is trying to make.
 
Thanks FFEMT8978, exactly my point.

Can one imagine going to a hospital to be treated by respiratory technicians that was administering you breathing treatments only to find out that they were only taught on how to turn the machine on, place med.'s in the nebulizer and be sure the patient kept the mouth piece in mouth. You would call foul! In fact for years, that is exactly what happened until R.T.'s recognized the need for improving their profession as well. From CEU's to mandated educational courses involving testing and clinical experience and requiring formal education has now changed the patient's outcome as well as their profession and pay. Can you imagine a pharmacy technician being solely responsible for filling your prescription..? How, hard can it be to pour "pills" in a bottle ?

I still do not understand any argument against education.... It would appear to me EMS would want more and more in-depth; not just for their sake but their patients sake as well. Obviously what we are doing is not working.

How can anyone argue about increasing the level of knowledge.? Is it better to remain ignorant or stupid, than to have knowledge in the profession you perform in ? Surely, our patients deserve better.

Working in a diverse health care setting, I have only found EMS to be antagonist in mandating stricter and more in-depth educational requirements, where as other health care providers boast about their educational standards and the growth by doing so.

I and many other educators have fought against ignorance and realize the need for things to change. Shame so many have to suffer in the mean time...

Our job and profession is an important one, and each member of it albeit paid or volunteer has an obligation to each patient to deliver the best care available (which includes knowledge and skills).

R/r 911
 
Ridryder911 said:
Thanks FFEMT8978, exactly my point.

Can one imagine going to a hospital to be treated by respiratory technicians that was administering you breathing treatments only to find out that they were only taught on how to turn the machine on, place med.'s in the nebulizer and be sure the patient kept the mouth piece in mouth. You would call foul! In fact for years, that is exactly what happened until R.T.'s recognized the need for improving their profession as well. From CEU's to mandated educational courses involving testing and clinical experience and requiring formal education has now changed the patient's outcome as well as their profession and pay. Can you imagine a pharmacy technician being solely responsible for filling your prescription..? How, hard can it be to pour "pills" in a bottle ?

I still do not understand any argument against education.... It would appear to me EMS would want more and more in-depth; not just for their sake but their patients sake as well. Obviously what we are doing is not working.

How can anyone argue about increasing the level of knowledge.? Is it better to remain ignorant or stupid, than to have knowledge in the profession you perform in ? Surely, our patients deserve better.

Working in a diverse health care setting, I have only found EMS to be antagonist in mandating stricter and more in-depth educational requirements, where as other health care providers boast about their educational standards and the growth by doing so.

I and many other educators have fought against ignorance and realize the need for things to change. Shame so many have to suffer in the mean time...

Our job and profession is an important one, and each member of it albeit paid or volunteer has an obligation to each patient to deliver the best care available (which includes knowledge and skills).

R/r 911
Click to expand...

I wish you would just stop bashing those of lower certification level than you. I think everyone is well aware of your belief on training verses education. I just don't understand why you are still in EMS or even in the forum if you don't respect those in the field. We all from Paramedic down have put in alot of blood sweat and tears into our training.

While we are discussing education... listen to this. It takes Virginia Trained Paramedics approx 6 years to get through all the school before becoming a paramedic if they go streight through and up through the ranks as suggested. In order to take an ALS class in this state, you are suggested to be an EMT-B for a min of one year. To move forward to each level, it is suggested that you stay at each level for one year prior to moving up. No, not all do it that way. However, if you do it like you are suggested, you get more "education" verses training and you don't come out a "cook-book" medic, you come out a compitent critical thinking provider.

So, Virginia has a very good education system for EMS if people would follow the suggested path. I don't have respect for anyone other than one person I know who went from 0-hero in 2 years... and that person is Prizenmedic. He is a rare type of provider. Everyone else I have ever met who were like that and skipped ranks, were no good to anyone in the back of the truck, and just down right dangerous!!! So... in a since, I am with you Ridryder on the Education part being important. However, if you just don't like the EMS system, the only thing I can suggest to you is to stop complaining about it and get out of it. I'm sure that you could do much more and make more money as a Nurse Practioner.
 
Ridryder911 said:
Shame on your Chief to be such an idiot! The first time my family had called for EMS and they were not aware of a "response" needed and had delay of several hours, you could name your town after my family member... volunteer or not! There is no justification or excuse for such blunt gross negligence! Does your town have an city attorney ? I wonder if they are aware of this? .. I bet not! Does he know there is legal implications by not responding.. remind him of the first rule in negligence is a Duty to Act .

If you can not offer the service then get the hell out of it.....no EMS is better than a half arse one. Scrap the existing one and at least start one that will actually respond. Has anyone made contact with neighboring communities for mutual aid ? I can see a long response in scarce remote mountainous area, plains, and yes very very remote areas, but hours before they were responded to?

More and more I explore U.S. EMS the more scarier it is!

If any of those family members want some extra cash, have them I.M. me, I'll be glad to testify against your Chief and service.

R/r 911
Click to expand...
I DEFINATELY will not argue your point here. In fact, I agree with you 150 percent. Unfortunately, our chief has managed to create a nice little dictatorship in the Squad. Sue does no good either. I, personally, know of 5 (five) lawsuits against our Squad and somehow the Squad has managed to either beat them or settle out of court. If you're interested in sueing our Squad, you're going to have to stand in line behind my wife. She's an attorney and has been DYING to file a lawsuit. At the momment, the only thing stopping her is the fact that I still run there and it would make life :censored: for me. I'm working on getting on one of our neighboring squads so I can get the :censored: out of there.
Minor clarification though. The squad KNEW there was a call, but we had no crew on duty to respond to the call that was missed. The first out crew was on another call and we had no second crew to respond. By the time it actually went to mutual aid (10 minutes) the family that called originally called back 911 and said forget it, they'd go to the hospital themselves.
 
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trauma1534 said:
I wish you would just stop bashing those of lower certification level than you. I think everyone is well aware of your belief on training verses education. I just don't understand why you are still in EMS or even in the forum if you don't respect those in the field. We all from Paramedic down have put in alot of blood sweat and tears into our training.

While we are discussing education... listen to this. It takes Virginia Trained Paramedics approx 6 years to get through all the school before becoming a paramedic if they go streight through and up through the ranks as suggested. In order to take an ALS class in this state, you are suggested to be an EMT-B for a min of one year. To move forward to each level, it is suggested that you stay at each level for one year prior to moving up. No, not all do it that way. However, if you do it like you are suggested, you get more "education" verses training and you don't come out a "cook-book" medic, you come out a compitent critical thinking provider.

So, Virginia has a very good education system for EMS if people would follow the suggested path. I don't have respect for anyone other than one person I know who went from 0-hero in 2 years... and that person is Prizenmedic. He is a rare type of provider. Everyone else I have ever met who were like that and skipped ranks, were no good to anyone in the back of the truck, and just down right dangerous!!! So... in a since, I am with you Ridryder on the Education part being important. However, if you just don't like the EMS system, the only thing I can suggest to you is to stop complaining about it and get out of it. I'm sure that you could do much more and make more money as a Nurse Practioner.
Click to expand...

I recommend reading without emotion. I was talking and discussing all levels generically. I am as dissapointed with the way Paramedic training has went as well.

No, I am not leaving EMS. In fact, I am personally getting more and more involved in EMS infrastructures. I have found out with the higher education levels, my suggestions are being listened to more than ever since I have more credibility. It is just unusual a professional educator and EMS activist to participate in EMT forums.

How many NHSTA, State EMS Directors, NREMT Board of Directors, EMS Medical Directors does one see participate in EMS forums ? Or for that goes, how many professional medics participate in EMS forums in comparison to the millions working in the field ?

Many of those professionals regards EMS forums as "feel good for egos" and "swapping war stories" sites, maybe the most viewed topic of being "what boot should I wear?". I personally view forums as an avenue to be able for us in EMS to be able to increase awareness of EMS Systems, current and proposed changes within the system, be able to learn of of other EMS systems nationally and internationally, as well as to be able to vent feelings for comradely support. Hopefully we can increase our knowledge in new and recent patient care topics, and of course tell jokes. But the main purpose is to I would hope would be to "to develop friends". Which I personally have accomplished from this site.

It was from EMS forums an organization was formed that has no gained respectability & credibility have been able to make suggestions to national and state steering committees for changes within EMS. Some of are members from this very forum. I can assure you many of these participants did not always agree with each other, with some topics became very heated & controversial. But, we all agreed upon one thing each wanted EMS to be a better system. In fact the more heated debates the more and more members started participating in and the forums increased their membership.

I believe you, that you think Virginia has an outstanding EMS system, I have heard quite the opposite of that. Personally, I do not know. I am sure it is like every other state, it has its' good and bad. Communicating and discussing with fellow co-workers is great but learning outside the "box" also means learning broadening ones' horizon and learning of other systems albeit local, state or even internationally. I know I have from many of you.


Respectfully,
R/r 911
 
Country Medical Director, State EMS Office determines scope of practice for all EMT-B's EMT-I's and EMT-P's The bottom line, we are here by choice to do the job that we do. It is the patients that are depending on us.
 
P.S. I hate worms!:wacko:
 
Ridryder911 said:
I recommend reading without emotion. I was talking and discussing all levels generically. I am as dissapointed with the way Paramedic training has went as well.

No, I am not leaving EMS. In fact, I am personally getting more and more involved in EMS infrastructures. I have found out with the higher education levels, my suggestions are being listened to more than ever since I have more credibility. It is just unusual a professional educator and EMS activist to participate in EMT forums.

How many NHSTA, State EMS Directors, NREMT Board of Directors, EMS Medical Directors does one see participate in EMS forums ? Or for that goes, how many professional medics participate in EMS forums in comparison to the millions working in the field ?

Many of those professionals regards EMS forums as "feel good for egos" and "swapping war stories" sites, maybe the most viewed topic of being "what boot should I wear?". I personally view forums as an avenue to be able for us in EMS to be able to increase awareness of EMS Systems, current and proposed changes within the system, be able to learn of of other EMS systems nationally and internationally, as well as to be able to vent feelings for comradely support. Hopefully we can increase our knowledge in new and recent patient care topics, and of course tell jokes. But the main purpose is to I would hope would be to "to develop friends". Which I personally have accomplished from this site.

It was from EMS forums an organization was formed that has no gained respectability & credibility have been able to make suggestions to national and state steering committees for changes within EMS. Some of are members from this very forum. I can assure you many of these participants did not always agree with each other, with some topics became very heated & controversial. But, we all agreed upon one thing each wanted EMS to be a better system. In fact the more heated debates the more and more members started participating in and the forums increased their membership.

I believe you, that you think Virginia has an outstanding EMS system, I have heard quite the opposite of that. Personally, I do not know. I am sure it is like every other state, it has its' good and bad. Communicating and discussing with fellow co-workers is great but learning outside the "box" also means learning broadening ones' horizon and learning of other systems albeit local, state or even internationally. I know I have from many of you.


Respectfully,
R/r 911
Click to expand...

You would be greater respected if you would stop bashing people, and trying to talk down. Heck, you even use dialog as if you were writing a text book instead of talking to us as people.

As far as Virginia having a good EMS system, I think it could stand improvement, just like all states. If you don't know how it is here, you should keep your speculations to yourself.
 
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I honestly don't believe he is trying to "talk down" to anyone. We're very lucky a man of his experience and education is taking time out of his schedule to post on here. Lets all agree to stop with the personal attacks, please.
 
Acetaminophen
Activated Charcoal
Albuterol
Aspirin
Atropine
Diphenhydramine
Epinephrine
Glucose
Ibuprofen
Naloxone
Nasal Spray
Nitroglycerin
Oxygen
Pralidoxime

These are the medications I can prescribe as an EMT-B in the State Of North Carolina
 
Glad to see someone figured out the search feature. I do ask if you actually write prescriptions or do you just administer what the medical director has ordered?
 
Epi-do said:
Here we can do oxygen, ASA, oral glucose, NTG, epi-pens, and albuterol inhalers. The last three we can only "assist" with and the patient must already have the medication.
Click to expand...

Thats what our EMRs here in the nwt can do.
 
JPINFV said:
Prescribe?
Click to expand...

Prescribe, administer, only a small difference :)

But really, this thread is from 2006!

Talk about a day late and a dollar short.
 
Veneficus said:
Prescribe, administer, only a small difference :)

But really, this thread is from 2006!

Talk about a day late and a dollar short.
Click to expand...


Would you rather he starts a new thread? A militant thread? If so, just name the system!

550px-SexualHarassment.jpg
 
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