Green Medic vs. Veteran Basic

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WuLabsWuTecH

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So here's an interesting scenario that popped up this summer.

An EMT-B of almost a decade, was working with his partner who was a medic of about as long but his partner was moving on to another company. The company hired a new medic who was about 1 month out of medic school. After the company training and ride alongs, he was assigned as the partner of our veteran basic.

The basic was not a happy camper since he had a lot more field experience but was being told what to do by a 20 year old who was fresh out of school.

If you were the EMS supervisor, would you have assigned a green medic to a veteran basic. The only other alternative i see is sticking him with a rookie basic in which case you have two rookies together which is also not a good thing!
 
oh this isnt going to end well......
 
Well I think he the rookie should be placed with experienced personnell but I think he also should be given a reminder that this veteran has been in the field longer and therefore may have more knowledge, But if the rookie has any sense he'll know this already on his own.

On a side note why has this veteran of a decade not furthered his education to better the field of EMS/Himself/Pt. care that is something to be considered as well maybe HE COULD learn from the motivated rookie.
 
I would have to defer to Military rank scenarios. I was a Specialist/E-4 when I got out of the Army. Approximately 5 months before I got out, we got a new Lt straight out of training. We had Privates that had more time in the Army. However, he was a Lt and as such, a higher level of training (so to speak). If someone has trouble taking orders from someone younger than they are but who has more training, then they need to get their ego in check and suck it up. Depending on the attitude of the Paramedic, it's possible that he would be willing to learn some of the "street" aspects of the job that Paramedic school doesn't teach. I work with Doctors that are younger than I am and still completing their training. I still have to take my orders from them. They have more training.
 
Where's that popcorn smilie? Seriously though, sounds like the veteran basic has an inferiority complex. Unless the rookie medic was also incompetent which you didn't say. You work with who they pair you with, and, if you really CAN'T get along, AND it's affecting pt care, then you try to get moved.
 
popcorn.gif
 
110 hours of training or 9 months of training. Case closed. The paramedic is the higher level of medical provider on the ambulance, and as such, is in charge. Does the basic give medical control issues if the medical control physician is relatively fresh out of residency (or even still in residency)? If the basic doesn't like it, I hear that paramedic schools are taking applications.

Edit:

This isn't to say that there isn't things to learn from people at a lower level. When I was volunteering in a hospital during my undergraduate, I did 2 quarters in the emergency room (the volunteer program I was in had college age volunteers on most of the units). During the second quarter the hospital shifted a bunch of CNAs from a few of the units where I had been on down to the ER. Did I teach them a few tips and tricks? Sure, but I didn't have an attitude since I had 'more time in the ER then they did.' After all, in the hierarchy of patient care, CNA/ER tech>Volunteer. Similarly, in the hierarchy of EMS, paramedic>basic.
 
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WuLabsWuTecH said:
The basic was not a happy camper since he had a lot more field experience but was being told what to do by a 20 year old who was fresh out of school.
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Well he's an idiot, period. If he wants to "run the show" he can man up and get a higher certification such as paramedic. Otherwise, he should fully understand, especially after 10 years, that his personal opinions and feelings will have to take a backseat when it comes to patient care.
 
JPINFV said:
110 hours of training or 9 months of training. Case closed. The paramedic is the higher level of medical provider on the ambulance, and as such, is in charge. Does the basic give medical control issues if the medical control physician is relatively fresh out of residency (or even still in residency)? If the basic doesn't like it, I hear that paramedic schools are taking applications.

Edit:

This isn't to say that there isn't things to learn from people at a lower level. When I was volunteering in a hospital during my undergraduate, I did 2 quarters in the emergency room (the volunteer program I was in had college age volunteers on most of the units). During the second quarter the hospital shifted a bunch of CNAs from a few of the units where I had been on down to the ER. Did I teach them a few tips and tricks? Sure, but I didn't have an attitude since I had 'more time in the ER then they did.' After all, in the hierarchy of patient care, CNA/ER tech>Volunteer. Similarly, in the hierarchy of EMS, paramedic>basic.
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Just to counter - the basic has 10-ish years of practical application... how long does the medic have?

We've been saying that medics and basics need more training.

A truly experienced basic could be a true asset as a partner... but he's got to also remember that his partner is a medic... and has the medic has been RECENTLY trained, he may do things differently than the old partner, who might not have been up on the latest protocols and research.

On the other hand, the medic needs to remember that his partner been working the ambulance since he was in middle school... so perhaps he can learn things from him, too.... like the area they work in, the little tricks of the trade, and how to interact with people.

In short... if both have the right attitude, it could be a GREAT partnership.
 
I think its probably a good match up since they can both learn a lot from each other.
 
FF894 said:
I think its probably a good match up since they can both learn a lot from each other.
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Yeah but both parties have to be willing to learn. It sounds like the EMT-B feels as if he already knows enough.
 
Jon said:
Just to counter - the basic has 10-ish years of practical application... how long does the medic have?
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Does it matter that much though? None of that practical experience is experience applying paramedic level care. Sure, the basic might be better at splinting or patient movement, or the like, but when it comes down to deciding the treatment plan (including when and how to begin transport), it's the paramedic's prerogatived. 10 years in the field (heck any amount of time in the field) does not make up the difference in education, training, and treatment options between a basic and a paramedic. It would be like a 30 year registered nurse complaining that s/he has to work with a physician fresh out of residency. The fact remains that no amount of experience the nurse has makes the nurse a physician.
 
Every medic I’ve ever met told me, "A good solid basic can be a blessing to a new medic."

If the supervisor were smart, he'd speak to each partner separately, stressing their individual strong points and then speak to them together, explaining why he partnered them and how each can help and learn from each other.

It could be the beginning of a great partnership.
 
As far as I know that is how they do it around here. Veteran basic with rookie medic.
The medic is the one in charge but that doesn't mean the emtB doesn't have valuable experience.
Its a learning experience for both.
 
n7lxi said:
Every medic I’ve ever met told me, "A good solid basic can be a blessing to a new medic."
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Absolutely. Or they can be the new medics worst nightmare. Sounds like this could be the case here.

If all that 10 years (and even if it wasn't) was spent in the same system, then the basic will have plenty to bring to the table; knowledge of the in's and out's of the system and area, how different hospital's/agencies interact with that service, hopefully enough experience to know when the situation is a bit hinky and call for PD or back out of the situation and potentially more.

What they won't have is a whole lot to share on the medical side of things. Which is where problems will more than likley pop up.

JPINFV said:
It would be like a 30 year registered nurse complaining that s/he has to work with a physician fresh out of residency.
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You don't really think that doesn't happen, do you?
 
Does it happen?

Sure.

Does it change the fact that the physician has the ultimate say in patient care just like the paramedic has the ultimate say in patient care in the ambulance?

No.

People can complain all they want about an inexperienced higher level provider. It still doesn't change the power relationship.
 
Really good points... however, it's the Supervisor's job to recognize the different personalities of the partners, appealing to, and managing to, their individual strengths.

The hallmark of a good manager is the ability to manage individuals, rather then the group.

Unfortunately, most EMS supervisors haven't been given proper training to be good leaders, nor do most have the patience to learn positive management styles on their own.
 
This is how my company explained it, in less words.

There is the Basic, and then there is the Paramedic. The Paramedic is the boss. He or she is ALWAYS the boss. It doesn't matter if it's a Paramedic of 2 days or two decades. He's the boss. And it doesn't matter if the Basic is 30 years older than the medic, or has 30 years more experience than the medic. The Paramedic is ALWAYS the boss.

He's upset about being outranked? Go back to school.

Respect rank. That's the way things work.
 
Hahahaha!

Oh, Crikey! How old are you people?? (I know some of you are old enough).This discussion is as funny as watching two Airman try to pull rank on one another based on the dates they entered Basic Training. Structure dictates the paramedic is responsible and therefore must have authority, but nowhere does it say he will try to "boss around" the Basic. "A non-com should never forget his commander is an officer, and his commander should never have to remind him". Loses in translation, I think.

New 2nd lieutenant with the crusty old SarMajor...old scenario. As long as the rookie listens to the experienced Basic, and the Basic knows half of what he's doing and is willing to orient a wet newbie, things will go really well. If the newbie screws up, the Basic tells the boss and the para gets a new partner... or the heave ho. Or, the Basic does everything the Para tells him, documents, and gets him fired.

The Basic is probably a Basic because that is his niche, not because he is lazy or something...or if he is, they need to get him gone.

I really wish them well, that can be a powerful combination if they "click".
 
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