EMT duo on break let pregnant mom die

[Scott33]

That reaction really didn't help their plea for assistance.

If there's a group of people screaming and cursing at me and my partner, I would be seriously considering backing out of there.

I think this is a valid point.

None of us were there, but it could have been a case of the 2 dispatchers finding themselves in a dangerous predicament - one which was gathering momentum by the minute. I am not condoning their actions (whatever they were), but threatening behavior is one of the first things I though of.

It all goes back to the public's expectations of anyone in uniform, and reason enough to go "Clark Kent" when off the clock.

 

[Aidey]

I don't understand why they didn't do an autopsy or at least wait to bury her. While tons of articles were going on about how they "let" her die they were also saying that the burial was scheduled in a few days, and the family had declined an autopsy. Doesn't make any sense to me frankly.

It also sounds like the staff may not have relayed the seriousness of the situation either. As I said before, there is a huge difference between "She is sick" and "She collapsed and we can't wake her up".

A lot of people commenting on the articles keep stating how they could have done CPR, or maintained her airway. It doesn't even sound like they knew those things may have been needed.

 

[Angel]

coincidence

I once was jogging and not to share too much info, but i was in a tank top and a bra, and no ladies, it wasnt a sports bra- that would have been better than the one I was wearing I assure you LOL Anyways I come across someone who was just hit by a car and bleeding bad. So i instinctively take off my shirt to apply pressure. The medics show up and I am being as professional as I can be with the girl in a bra and shorts explaining what happened. haha
My point is, I think no matter what - if you can help and not cause more harm than good, then you should , but thats just my own personal opinion.

OT: that reminds me of this

 

[Trauma's Mistress]

Yes I know. I saw the episode too. Its why I pointed out that mine wasnt a sports bra, At least hers on the show, it was a little more modest on the show trauma.

While im on the subject. I actually like the show. I know they do a lot of things wrong on there, but I think trying to bring to light about what we do - the premise of it, not really the literal number of compressions, the right shocking rhythm etc,. i think its a pretty good show.

 

[downunderwunda]

now they should have stayed and they could have done compressions.the stupid part is that they could have easily just called upstairs to the disptachers office told them whats going on and someone could have ran downstairs with equipment and they would have gotten als,bls fire pd and a conditions boss to the scene much faster and that girl would be alive

Thats a big call. How can you be certain of that?

If they acted as you say, she may have had a better chance, but you can never say with certainty, except in the classromm, that she would be alive.

 

[Trayos]

I don't understand why they didn't do an autopsy or at least wait to bury her. While tons of articles were going on about how they "let" her die they were also saying that the burial was scheduled in a few days, and the family had declined an autopsy. Doesn't make any sense to me frankly.

It also sounds like the staff may not have relayed the seriousness of the situation either. As I said before, there is a huge difference between "She is sick" and "She collapsed and we can't wake her up".

A lot of people commenting on the articles keep stating how they could have done CPR, or maintained her airway. It doesn't even sound like they knew those things may have been needed.

At the risk of sounding heartless, could the woman have had a history of seizures? With all this PR, the family may feel that exhuming the body and/or finding information in files that suggested that this was not a totally unexpected occurrence might be the wrong move. Speculation, but perhaps she did not wish to take medication because of the risks it might pose to her child?

 

[Jon]

I really think there is more to this story - I can't wait to see what the investigation finds.

 

[masquedxangel]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,582557,00.html

The newest update is that the woman died due to an asthma attack.

 

[Angel]

There's so many versions to this story, difficulty breathing or a seizure? Diction is very important in this case...We'll see.

 

[dmc2007]

The pair are back on modified duty and have gone public with their version of events:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/nyregion/21emt.html?ref=nyregion

 

[NC_EMT]

I would think there would be a negligence suit in place. They had a formal duty to act and should have done everything in their power to help the pt. Even if they did not have the proper equipment to administer aid, they could have assessed the pt and at least been a bit helpful if at all possible. If I'm in a position where someone is in a life threatening situation and I can help without endangering my own life, I will. No questions asked.

 

[Miscusi]

This is old, but I remember this...

They had NO duty to act.

the duty to act is:

In uniform, Check.
On Duty, Check.
Dispatched to emergency, no.

EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.

 

[usalsfyre]

This is old, but I remember this...

They had NO duty to act.

the duty to act is:

In uniform, Check.
On Duty, Check.
Dispatched to emergency, no.

EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.

ACTUALLY.....

The interpretation of most states is that if an emergency presents to you your obligated to assist...

Legal duty to act and good judgement occasionally differ as well. Handholding and a 911 call would have gone a ling way here.

 

[Veneficus]

ACTUALLY.....

The interpretation of most states is that if an emergency presents to you your obligated to assist...

Legal duty to act and good judgement occasionally differ as well. Handholding and a 911 call would have gone a ling way here.

Along these lines, I have even seen it written into employment contracts that if you are a emergency responder in the municipality, on or off duty, you are expected to render aid.

(what render aid meant was not stipulated)

There is also a difference between what your agency may expect of you and what your boss does.

(In this case the bosses were the citizens paying the salary)

Agency reputation is an everyday battle.

 

[dmc2007]

EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.

If and when you get out on the road, ignore the first person that comes up to you looking for aid. See how that works out for you.

 

[Aidey]

What was the point of bumping a 2 year old thread?

 

[DrParasite]

This is old, but I remember this...

They had NO duty to act.

the duty to act is:

In uniform, Check.
On Duty, Check.
Dispatched to emergency, no.

EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.

Actually, they were off duty, on a lunch break (technically anyway).

There are also conflicting eye witness reports for what they did and did not do, and what they did and did not say. Even the witnesses couldn't agree on if she had asthma or a seizure, or if it was abdominal pain. And FDNY never bothered to issue a statement about what these two did, all they said was they were investigating.

It was a PR nightmare. and the idiot mayor spoke in an official capacity, and instead of waiting until the investigation was completed, he jumped on the bandwagon, and threw 2 of his employees under the bus. And the two accused couldn't even respond and defend themselves, because the investigation was still pending, while the family was running their mouth about an incident that may or may not have happened as they are saying.

Here are the facts: they were EMTs, but assigned to dispatch, and haven't been on an ambulance in years. They have 0 equipment with them, and without equipment, could not properly treat the patient. When asked, they notified dispatch, and requested an ambulance. None of this information was disputed by anyone.

These two were convicted in the eyes of the family, the media, and the public. And since the media saw a great hook ("two uniformed civil servants stand by while a pregnant lady died" how can it not sell papers???), and the witnesses were outraged that she died, it spread like wildfire, where even the idiot mayor drank the coolaid and was ready to hang these two.

The two accused are back on the job. I bet they won't be reimbursed for their attorney fees, and won't get the money back that they lost when they were suspended without pay. The mayor won't give a public statement that he was wrong, nor will the FDNY make a public statement that these two did nothing wrong.

It was a tragedy that she died. The fact that she was a high risk pregnancy (due to the asthma), and she was overweight if I remember correctly lead to her death. The family is looking for someone to blame, but the reality is, she probably would still be dead had the two EMTs held her hand until the ambulance arrived. But that doesn't sell papers, so you probably won't see that headline anytime soon.

 

[Scott33]

The two accused are back on the job.

Errrr...one of them may be, but the other certainly isn't.

 

[usalsfyre]

but the reality is, she probably would still be dead had the two EMTs held her hand until the ambulance arrived

Very true. But would you have had nearly as much of a PR nightmare? Sometimes perception is reality.

 

[DrParasite]

Errrr...one of them may be, but the other certainly isn't.

yes, well, he isn't back on the job.... but getting shot while not at work had nothing to do with this situation at hand. that was just bad luck. but if he wasn't killed, he would have been reinstated.

Very true. But would you have had nearly as much of a PR nightmare? Sometimes perception is reality.

Perception isn't reality; it can, however, be more important than reality. new headline: "EMTs hold pregnant mother's hand while she slowly and painfully dies; mother of deceased call EMTs heartless for standing around for the show but not helping daughter in need."

Want some more PR problems? your mechanic is driving an OOS ambulance to the dealer in another area. he witnesses an MVA, but since he isn't an EMT, he calls 911 and keeps driving. was he wrong? and if he had stopped, and there was a dying baby, which he couldn't treat or transport, how bad would the PR be? What's the perception, and how does it compare to reality.

How about this: you just finished a 12/24 hour shift, and decide to go to walmart. since you just got off from work, you are still in uniform (shirt, pants, jobshirt/jacket), so you walk in to buy your widget. you get it, and as you paying, you hear that at the auto repair section of the store, a tire fell off a lift and knocked a mechanic unconscious. do you go render aid? and what exactly will you be doing, other than handholding? what if the store manager says "don't worry, we have already called 911, and have the situation under control." then what? do you leave? do you stay? and if you follow the manager's directions and leave, when you get vilified for being a heartless provider, esp since your actions lead to the poor man dying according to the public, how do you respond?

And your agency won't back you, all they will tell everyone is that they are investigating, and the mayor wants you fired. Despite you not knocking the guy out, or causing the injury, or being able to do anything to help since you have no equipment, you are apparently the cause of his death. again, perceptions vs reality.

Perception happens to be more important, but reality and the facts are what you can control, as that was what really happened. and having a good PIO can help mitigate some of these problems, or you can do the right thing and still be the reincarnation of the devil himself.