EMT accused of ignoring dying NYC woman is killed

[Aidey]

Yes, I see your point.

In that case, I would be interested in reviewing the investigation reports and witness statements.

Had I been in the same scenario, I would asked AuBon for gloves, have sat patient in the postion of comfort, call 911, then call the dispatch directly to expedite and have someone respond from building with a bag, I would have coached the woman to breathe normally, assisted with abuterol if she had it, and directed a compitent person to wait outside and escort the responding EMTs in to the store. I would have relayed info to them.

Then I would have walked away and drank my coffee.

Right, because it is completely ethical to expedite an ambulance when there might be other calls that are classed as more severe going on?

As 46 pointed out, we really have no idea what happened, and basing the info off the news reports is no better than guessing. It hasn't even been confirmed that these two saw the patient, or were ever in the same room as her. Heck, news reports can't even agree on whether she had an asthma attack (this is reported more often) or a seizure.

Also, WHO CARES where they get their coffee? Seriously? You're going to go after them for not brown bagging it and spending $8 a day on coffee and a danish? Totally not relevant.

 

[Shishkabob]

And I also love how totally unrealistic his account of what he'd do truly is.


A bit too "by the book" and clean for real world.

 

[ffemt8978]

Reading some of the comments in this thread prompted me to go looking for the original one (here for reference http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=16260)

Posted in that thread was this article http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/..._mom_die_mrj8Jv8kjmS0Z3FNO4DmiL#ixzz0aH3OguQm which stated

"I remember them saying they couldn't do anything because they were on their break," another worker said. "We started screaming and cursing at them."

Also posted in that thread was this article http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...s-say-they-werent-asked-to-examine-ill-woman/ which states

NEW YORK — The emergency medical technicians accused of refusing to help a dying pregnant woman were never asked to examine her or told the extent of her condition, their lawyer said Thursday.
Attorney Douglas Rosenthal said his clients were only asked to summon an ambulance <snip> , and that other employees didn't seem overly concerned about her condition.
"There was no apparent panic," Rosenthal said in a statement.

** <snip> meant only to comply with Fair Use and not change context**

It goes on to state

Rosenthal said Jackson radioed for an ambulance and she and Green, a six-year veteran, stayed until they knew help was coming.

So the one thing that is painfully obvious is that we don't know exactly what happened (especially considering the contradictory statements that were made)...yet it is equally obvious that people are willing to judge others and even go so far as to detailing out what they would do if they were placed in the same scenario.

​

 

[firecoins]

I would like to add that these were 2 DISPATCHERS with an EMT-B certification. As far as we know they just have the certification and have no experience, paid or volley, in providing pt care.

The fact that the news stories stress the EMT-B and sometimes refers to them as paramedics implies incorrectly that they provide patient care on a regular basis.

 

[JPINFV]

I would like to add that these were 2 EMT-Bs who were dispatchers. As far as we know they just have the certification and have no experience, paid or volley, in providing pt care.

See what I did there?

My father is an engineer. He has no formal medical training. New Years Eve he was at a party where an elderly gentlemen fell and broke his leg. He was able to take charge of the scene, keep other people from trying to move the gentleman, provide a feeling that the scene was under control (the other bystanders who had no medical training on one hand challenged his feeling that it was best not to stand the gentleman up, but no one wanted to actually take over), ensure that 911 was called, and stayed with the man until the ambulance arrived.

Does anyone here want to say what he did was wrong? If not, how can an engineer with zero medical training provide better care than two EMTs who are dispatchers?


/cool story bro...

 

[firecoins]

first of all, no newspaper has referred to
your dad as a medic.
2nd your father provided what medical care?
Not standing the guy up?
3rd you have decided that conflicting news
accounts should not slow your rush to
judgement.

See what I did there?

My father is an engineer. He has no formal medical training. New Years Eve he was at a party where an elderly gentlemen fell and broke his leg. He was able to take charge of the scene, keep other people from trying to move the gentleman, provide a feeling that the scene was under control (the other bystanders who had no medical training on one hand challenged his feeling that it was best not to stand the gentleman up, but no one wanted to actually take over), ensure that 911 was called, and stayed with the man until the ambulance arrived.

Does anyone here want to say what he did was wrong? If not, how can an engineer with zero medical training provide better care than two EMTs who are dispatchers?


/cool story bro...

 

[Shishkabob]

Then, JP, why couldn't another civilian do that in the given circumstance? Why did the EMTs have to if a civilian would have been just as useful?

 

[JPINFV]

Then, JP, why couldn't another civilian do that in the given circumstance? Why did the EMTs have to if a civilian would have been just as useful?

Why should lay providers be expected to step in and provide care over a uniformed provider with formal medical training? Doesn't the person with formal medical training and in uniform have an ethical and moral obligation to provide said care? Are you also going to claim that most civilians can keep their heads on straight enough to provide even competent first aid in situations going past minor scrapes and bumps? If so, your faith in the average human is much greater than mine.

first of all, no newspaper has referred to
your dad as a medic.
2nd your father provided what medical care?
Not standing the guy up?
3rd you have decided that conflicting news
accounts should not slow your rush to
judgement.

To the best of my knowledge, that incident never made it to the newspapers.

Next, I honestly don't give a damn about whether the news papers described them as being a paramedic or an EMT. I don't expect newspapers or reporters to know everything about EMS or medicine. Furthermore, the distinction between the two is a moot point. The fact is that two people with formal emergency medical education couldn't give two _____ about the fact that they had said training and left. Even their lawyer admits to as much.

"Rosenthal [the EMTs lawyer] said Jackson radioed for an ambulance and she and Green, a six-year veteran, stayed until they knew help was coming."

Furthermore, "A union covering emergency workers has said that all dispatchers are required to be field-trained EMTs or paramedics in order to be more effective at their jobs, and are capable of getting involved in emergency situations. The New York Fire Department says all members take an oath to help others whenever emergency medical care is needed."

So apparently, either the reporter from the AP can't do her job or it's some grand conspiracy that includes the fire department, the EMTs' union, and their lawyer because the combination of all three statements says that the EMTs were certified and trained (both in the sense of initial EMT training and field training), were bound by oath to provide what care they could, and instead left after making a phone call. Now go ahead. Call their lawyer a biased liar.


Quotes from:
http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...s-say-they-werent-asked-to-examine-ill-woman/


Edit:
Oh, and for the record. If I'm walking to my car after a clinical or lab day in my short white student coat and someone flags me down to help. I think it's damn well expected that I, even as a medical student, should stick around until EMS arrives instead of just getting in my car and speeding off. Even though in the practical sense, someone who has completed EMT training is much more competent at providing care, even just basic care, than a first or second year medical student who may or may not have any sort of other health care training (which would describe most of my classmates). Hell, we don't even go through BCLS and ACLS until the end of our second year at my school, but I guarantee you that the person who needs help doesn't care even if all I do is stick around till the ambulance arrives.

 

[Shishkabob]

Ethical? No way.

Moral? Just as much as the next guy to do what they can, which when it comes to not only the minimal intervention ability of an EMT, but also probably little experience, and no equipment, is pretty much on par with what civilians can do in that situation: Do nothing but look pretty.

 

[JPINFV]

Oh, something else to think about. If it's no big deal because they 'couldn't do anything' then the entire mentality of "The emergency is over when two dudes in a vehicle with flashy lights shows up" is complete and utter bull poop. How could the emergency be over by the arrival of two dudes and a mobile light show if no interventions were completed? Hell, in the terms of EMTs, then no emergency is over until the arrival of paramedics or delivery to the emergency room.

 

[Shishkabob]

Just saying it's silly to think that EMTs with no equipment (and likely little if any real experience) could do ANYTHING besides look pretty for the proverbial cameras.

 

[firecoins]

Why should lay providers be expected to step in and provide care over a uniformed provider with formal medical training? Doesn't the person with formal medical training and in uniform have an ethical and moral obligation to provide said care? Are you also going to claim that most civilians can keep their heads on straight enough to provide even competent first aid in situations going past minor scrapes and bumps? If so, your faith in the average human is much greater than mine.

As uniformed members they should have stuck around pending they didn't. However there was nothing medical that could been done be 2 dispatchers who took an EMT class with no equipment to speak of.

To the best of my knowledge, that incident never made it to the newspapers.

How do we know your father did what you say he did? You weren't there so he must have told you. You didn't read varying accounts of the incident that are questionable.

Next, I honestly don't give a damn about whether the news papers described them as being a paramedic or an EMT.

Your not giving a damn about a factual account of events is quite odd. One story has paramedics telling panicked bystanders they couldn't help becuase they are on their break and another story has dispatchers simply being asked by calm bystanders to call for an ambulance which they did. The woman had an asthma attack or seizure. Nothing these 2 dispatchers could have done would have saved this woman's life.

2 years ago The NY Daily News quoted hospital sources saying New York Ranger Sean Avery died. Apparently after a playoff game, Avery went home and collapsed. He rushed to Saint Vincent hospital in cardiac arrest where he was pronounced around midnight.

Around midnight I was doing a medic rotation in the ICU and Sean Avery was wheeled in on a cot. He was a/ox4 with the team MD and his girlfriend. Apparently he collided with a player in the first period causing abd pain. He played the rest of the game. Afterwards he told the tema MD and they drove his car to the ED and he walked in. He never went home, collapsed, took an ambulance or coded.

 

[Melclin]

Yes, I see your point.

In that case, I would be interested in reviewing the investigation reports and witness statements.

Had I been in the same scenario, I would asked AuBon for gloves, have sat patient in the postion of comfort, call 911, then call the dispatch directly to expedite and have someone respond from building with a bag, I would have coached the woman to breathe normally, assisted with abuterol if she had it, and directed a compitent person to wait outside and escort the responding EMTs in to the store. I would have relayed info to them.

Then I would have walked away and drank my coffee.

That does sound a tad like a 50's instructional video. "Here we can see that little johnny has provided FIRST AID...Thanks johnny *Johnny waves at audience* Now run along back to school before teacher gives you a F Johnny AHAHA". I see this assist patient with medication BS all the time in first aid literature. How much assisting can you really do when a person needs a pill or a puff?


Now I just can't be arsed sifting through this thread, but I will say this, knowing that its probably been said before.

I don't think the EMTs could have done anything at all and they did not disadvantage this woman in anyway. That said, they are still idiots because they should have been able to see how much of a PR disaster it would be. Even if she lived and it didn't make the news, it still reflects badly on the service for no other reason than the public are simply not aware of the fact that there is nothing the EMTs could have done and would interpret a flippant remark as they exited the building to be gross negligence. How the hell didn't they see that coming? At the very least they could have explained it or acted in a way that placated the public (Although I must say, we don't actually know for sure that they didn't).

 

[jjesusfreak01]

Patient in the cancer ward at your local hospital dies...think of the difference of these two situations.

Situation 1: Doctor was on vacation in Maui when patient died, exclaims "there was nothing we could do".

Situation 2: Doctor was at the bedside of his patient, holding her hand when she died, tells the family "there was nothing we could do".

This might be the same situation, and there may have been nothing medical that the EMTs could do, but lets be honest here. Are there any EMS providers on this forum that think that just being there for the patient, holding their hand, letting them know they aren't alone won't make a difference? Sorry for my annoyance at the situation, I just finished reading Firetender's book.

 

[Shishkabob]

And which would make the public more angry?

The people who aren't there, or the people who ARE there and do nothing but stare at the patient?


You have to remember, the public automatically thinks we can pull an AED out of our butts and save someone, even when off duty and beyond our scope.

 

[Bloom-IUEMT]

Couldn't do anything..
What if she coded?

 

[JPINFV]

As uniformed members they should have stuck around pending they didn't. However there was nothing medical that could been done be 2 dispatchers who took an EMT class with no equipment to speak of.

Because the only thing EMS does on scene is medical? I'll ask again, given the reaction to this case, how could the mindset of "the emergency is over when two doods in the mobile woo woo vehicle show up" be true?

How do we know your father did what you say he did? You weren't there so he must have told you. You didn't read varying accounts of the incident that are questionable.

Unlike apparently you (since you're even asking this), I have no reason to believe my father lies to me. I'm sorry that you can't trust your father.

Your not giving a damn about a factual account of events is quite odd. One story has paramedics telling panicked bystanders they couldn't help becuase they are on their break and another story has dispatchers simply being asked by calm bystanders to call for an ambulance which they did. The woman had an asthma attack or seizure. Nothing these 2 dispatchers could have done would have saved this woman's life.

Again, I don't expect reporters to be all knowing being of everything, especially when EMS can't get its own titles standardized across 50 states. Furthermore, the distinction between an EMT and a paramedic means zero in this case. This isn't the first time and won't be the last time that some reporter who isn't an expert in EMS mixes up the title of EMT and title of paramedics.

In fact, I'd go a step further. The difference between someone with formal medical training and someone without is the only distinction that means anything in this case. If it was a physician eating lunch who was wearing something that ID'ed him as a physician, and someone approached him requesting help, I'd expect the same thing out of him as I'm expecting out of these two EMTs. This isn't about being a hero. This isn't about saving the world. It's about doing the right thing.

2 years ago The NY Daily News quoted hospital sources saying New York Ranger Sean Avery died. Apparently after a playoff game, Avery went home and collapsed. He rushed to Saint Vincent hospital in cardiac arrest where he was pronounced around midnight.

Around midnight I was doing a medic rotation in the ICU and Sean Avery was wheeled in on a cot. He was a/ox4 with the team MD and his girlfriend. Apparently he collided with a player in the first period causing abd pain. He played the rest of the game. Afterwards he told the tema MD and they drove his car to the ED and he walked in. He never went home, collapsed, took an ambulance or coded.

Associated Press is now at the same level of a NY rag?


I don't know. Apparently I hold myself to a higher standard than NY EMTs hold themselves and some of this board holds themselves.

 

[JPINFV]

That does sound a tad like a 50's instructional video. "Here we can see that little johnny has provided FIRST AID...Thanks johnny *Johnny waves at audience* Now run along back to school before teacher gives you a F Johnny AHAHA".

Best instructional film.. ever...
http://www.hulu.com/watch/12551/dodgeball-adaa-film

 

[JPINFV]

And which would make the public more angry?

The people who aren't there, or the people who ARE there and do nothing but stare at the patient?


You have to remember, the public automatically thinks we can pull an AED out of our butts and save someone, even when off duty and beyond our scope.

Or option 3. The people who are there, see or have knowledge of a person in distress, and then walk away?

 

[DrParasite]

FDNY EMTs say they weren't asked to examine ill woman

NEW YORK — The emergency medical technicians accused of refusing to help a dying pregnant woman were never asked to examine her or told the extent of her condition, their lawyer said Thursday.

Attorney Douglas Rosenthal said his clients were only asked to summon an ambulance on Dec. 9 when they were taking a break in a Brooklyn eatery. He said Jason Green and Melisa Jackson never saw Eutisha Rennix, who was in the back of the Au Bon Pain store, and that other employees didn't seem overly concerned about her condition. "There was no apparent panic," Rosenthal said in a statement.

Rosenthal said Jackson, a four-year veteran, was asked by an employee to summon an ambulance because the six-months-pregnant Rennix was showing asthmic symptoms and was experiencing abdominal pain. Rosenthal said Jackson radioed for an ambulance and she and Green, a six-year veteran, stayed until they knew help was coming. "They were thanked by the employee for their response," he said.

for the rest of the article
http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...s-say-they-werent-asked-to-examine-ill-woman/