DC Firefighters whine about name change.

usalsfyre said:
Firefite, I'm way off topic here, but I'll say this. You need to think long and hard about continuing with this department if this is the way you operate. Fire service standards, like many others, are written in blood. 2 in 2 out is an absolute requirement. If the roof should fall in while your inside prior to anyone being there to help you, your dependents will most likely not receive the PSOB as you were involved in what was essentially an illegal operation. The "incident commander" being on the pump panel is laughable, how is he going to watch fire conditions? If you get ejected while dressing out enroutre, again no PSOB and you died before you could ever get to the scene.

I work part time for a department that has three in shift. It sucks waiting for mutual aid. But I refuse to do anything overly dangerous for property. It can be replaced. I can't. Several years ago our county had two guys die in a house that was empty, and most of the contents was burned up long before they died. Why were the there? "Because that's what fireman do!" That's just not a good enough excuse to tell my kids anymore.
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by the time that the first crew is able to enter the building a second engine will arrive and have set up as a RIC. our stations are pretty close together and we run 3 engines out of one of the stations. as for the getting geared up as we are driving to the scene you can do that as long as your seatbelt on. i have done that multiple times. the IC is the engineer until a higher up arrives in their response trucks. then the higher ranking firefighter will take over IC. thanks for your opinion usal. but i have worked with in this area for 5 years and i have seen how it operates and how they get stuff done. we do stuff safely and follow all the fire codes for our area.
 
firefite said:
by the time that the first crew is able to enter the building a second engine will arrive and have set up as a RIC. our stations are pretty close together and we run 3 engines out of one of the stations. as for the getting geared up as we are driving to the scene you can do that as long as your seatbelt on. i have done that multiple times. the IC is the engineer until a higher up arrives in their response trucks. then the higher ranking firefighter will take over IC. thanks for your opinion usal. but i have worked with in this area for 5 years and i have seen how it operates and how they get stuff done. we do stuff safely and follow all the fire codes for our area.
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How is the engineer supposed to pump and also run command? If the second engine is functioning as RIT (RIC), who's getting a secondary water supply, or pulling a back up line? We haven't even discussed having a truck company ladder the windows in case that interior crew gets cut off. Also, "Two In Two Out" means no one goes in alone, and there needs to be at least two outside for rescue if a mayday is called. You actually need around 12-13 FF's just to rescue one. This only scratches the surface as to why there needs to be so many FF's on a structure fire, for those that suggest cutting staffing and deployment.

Here, for a house fire, the first due engine has command, decides to go interior or defensive, then passes command to the second engine. Thge second engine establishes a water supply if the first due didn't bring their own. The third due has the back up line, and the fourth due is RIT. The first truck has ladders and venting, the second truck has utilities and roof cuts if needed, and the first heavy rescue has search unless they are extended, then the first truck has search. There's also two EMS units, an EMS supervisor, and BC. An effective attack may not be possible without these resources. And that's only the first alarm. Also realize that having only two on a truck or three on an engine is also understaffing. I'll post the truck staffing video from my county again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_K-K6o5cGc

I know this is way off topic, but inadequate staffing and deployment, and the suggestion to cut back on that due to call volume alone (EMS runs more so cut fire staffing since they run less), gets me going. Like it was said earlier, either you staff and deploy suppression ops adequately, or don't bother at all, since they're ineffective otherwise.
 
firefite said:
by the time that the first crew is able to enter the building a second engine will arrive and have set up as a RIC. our stations are pretty close together and we run 3 engines out of one of the stations. as for the getting geared up as we are driving to the scene you can do that as long as your seatbelt on. i have done that multiple times. the IC is the engineer until a higher up arrives in their response trucks. then the higher ranking firefighter will take over IC. thanks for your opinion usal. but i have worked with in this area for 5 years and i have seen how it operates and how they get stuff done. we do stuff safely and follow all the fire codes for our area.
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I was surprised by what I thought you were saying, because my understanding of the department I think you work for is they're very safety oriented. Glad to see that impression wasn't wrong.

I've been to several LODD funerals, hopefully my quota is met for life. Amazing Grace on bagpipes unlocks a profound sadness within me. As such, I'm kinda preachy when it comes to fireground safety.

Keep your head down and collar up.
 
46Young said:
How is the engineer supposed to pump and also run command? If the second engine is functioning as RIT (RIC), who's getting a secondary water supply, or pulling a back up line? We haven't even discussed having a truck company ladder the windows in case that interior crew gets cut off. Also, "Two In Two Out" means no one goes in alone, and there needs to be at least two outside for rescue if a mayday is called. You actually need around 12-13 FF's just to rescue one. This only scratches the surface as to why there needs to be so many FF's on a structure fire, for those that suggest cutting staffing and deployment.

Here, for a house fire, the first due engine has command, decides to go interior or defensive, then passes command to the second engine. Thge second engine establishes a water supply if the first due didn't bring their own. The third due has the back up line, and the fourth due is RIT. The first truck has ladders and venting, the second truck has utilities and roof cuts if needed, and the first heavy rescue has search unless they are extended, then the first truck has search. There's also two EMS units, an EMS supervisor, and BC. An effective attack may not be possible without these resources. And that's only the first alarm. Also realize that having only two on a truck or three on an engine is also understaffing. I'll post the truck staffing video from my county again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_K-K6o5cGc

I know this is way off topic, but inadequate staffing and deployment, and the suggestion to cut back on that due to call volume alone (EMS runs more so cut fire staffing since they run less), gets me going. Like it was said earlier, either you staff and deploy suppression ops adequately, or don't bother at all, since they're ineffective otherwise.
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Edit: This isn't directed at you, firefite, but rather to illustrate why staffing is important for fires.
 
46Young, there's a whole lot of departments that need to admit defeat and be "spray from outside" departments. However the culture of the fire service seems to prevent this.
 
usalsfyre said:
46Young, there's a whole lot of departments that need to admit defeat and be "spray from outside" departments. However the culture of the fire service seems to prevent this.
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No kidding. Especially with the type 5 stick homes. If you're inside more than 15-20 give or take from when the fire started (plus delay in reporting), and don't have a knock, then it's time to think about getting out and setting up the artificial rain makers. There's no warning like spongy floors or anything. The roof just dumps right on top of you, or the floor just drops right out.

Down in Charleston, they've been resistant to the safety culture. Our retired member, Jimmy Ghi, met a lot of resistance, and eventually resigned after conditions were made untenable for him.
 
Yeah, gussett plates were scary enough, but the laminated glue crap being used now is enough to give me nightmares. Not to mention larger homes with more open space floor plans are being constructed this way.

You know the fire in the truck staffing video? A friend of mine was one of the last guys out the window onto Truck 403's stick. This was one of those "eye openers" for me.

Charleston I'm sure, like many smaller southern departments, wants to remain in the "good old boy" system. Unfortunately more guys will die because of a few dinosaurs discomfort over change.
 
Normally first crew will catch the hydrant. If not then one firefighter from the second engine crew will attach to it. We don't have a heavy rescue unit or any ladder trucks. We normally won't call for ambulances since we are also EMS. As soon as the call for a reported fire comes in we send 3 engines. After the fire is confirmend we send a breathing support 1 or 2 more engines and a DC to take over IC from the first arriving engine. After everyone arrives on scene we have roughly 14 or more. But as soon as the first engine arrives on scene we start firefighting operations.
 
Yeah I agree the names ridiculous, and whats the point of changing the name, is that in some way going to fix the problem?
 
This thread has gone walkabout and needs to get back on topic.
 
Another thing that is on topic, at least some of the firefighters gear says the city and then fire. So if DCFD is on the back of their turnout gear that's more money right there plus the time to have the name fixed.
 
firefite said:
by 2 in and 2 out i meant "2 go in and 2 come out". wel will have 2 firefighters gaining entry into the building as the 3rd firefighter who is the engineer stays outside and handles the pump and also takes over incident commander of the scene. as soon as the second engine arrives on scene they are the RIC team "rapid intervention crew". as soon as a reported fire gets reported we automatically send out 3 engines. if we are on a medical call we will wait for the ambulance to arrive then ask if they need assistance. if they do then we stay. if they dont then we gear up as we are driving to the fire.
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2 in 2 out does NOT mean that. and if you have any doubts im sure your local osha office will set you straight in a very expensive way. 2 in 2 out means for every 2 people you have in the building you have 2 people outside or a dedicated RIT team in order to rescue those inside if needed. this is straight out the book.
 
Last chance to get it back on topic...
 
i feel like dc needs to pick something better to jump up and down about than the the letters on the back of their t-shirts that they dont HAVE to buy. or heres an idea ( GASP ) just wear their company t-shirts
 
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What about Fire, Emergency Call, and EMS Services?(FECES)

I saw this on another forum and almost spit out my drink.

What if you take a slight pause between the F and the EMS? It would be quite derogatory.
 
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I agree the FEMS acronym is not the best but I am loving that EMS is right there!

I'm so sick of FD EMS providers whining and complaining all the time when they are tasked with taking care of people. There is nothing I dislike more than Fire-based EMS.

Fire and EMS are like plumbers and chefs.... how are the two related again? They are not related. Dragging around fire hose, shooting water, and doing fire inspections, has absolutely nothing to do with providing healthcare.

EMS needs to separate from DC Fire.
 
46Young said:
What about Fire, Emergency Call, and EMS Services?(FECES)
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Probably incredibly appropriate from what I've seen and heard of DC EMS.

46Young said:
What if you take a slight pause between the F and the EMS? It would be quite derogatory.
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No more derogatory than the problEMS poster that made it's way around the fire service a couple of years ago.
 
I do not want people providing medical care that are that delusional about their own self importance.
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Never get seriously ill or injured outside of a hospital in the United States then....or in one as a matter of fact.
 
18G said:
I agree the FEMS acronym is not the best but I am loving that EMS is right there!

I'm so sick of FD EMS providers whining and complaining all the time when they are tasked with taking care of people. There is nothing I dislike more than Fire-based EMS.

Fire and EMS are like plumbers and chefs.... how are the two related again? They are not related. Dragging around fire hose, shooting water, and doing fire inspections, has absolutely nothing to do with providing healthcare.

EMS needs to separate from DC Fire.
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Generalize much?

You don't need to have two aspects of your job description to have significant overlap to do either one well. There are EMS depts that run heavy rescues. NYPD ESU does the same. Nassau County PD (NY) uses LEO's trained to EMT-B as crew members on their ambulances. Water rescue and TROT has little overlap with structural firefighting. Our Fire Marshalls are put through the county's police academy, given additional education on the LE side, and are detectives when they are finished. Little overlap to structural firefighting with the exception of building construction there as well.

As far as didactic content necessary to do both fire and EMS, I'd argue that a BSN, RRT, or a PA are responsible for more than that. How about a doctor? If it's supposedly so difficult to command the knowledge for both EMS and firefighting, how could it be possible that anyone could get through medical school? It would be too much. How many people in EMS work towards other degrees such as Business Admin, Emergency Management, Pub Admin, etc. Wouldn't that be spreading yourself too thin since EMS, which you're working FT, and also studying for these degrees are like plumbers and chefs? Regarding training, you're running both suppression and EMS calls every day, depending on where you're riding. There are several monthly drills for each side. There are in-service EMS CEU's quaterly. For suppresion there are numerous OOS on duty multi-company drills that are mandated throughout the year, three Operational Academy Rotations OOS each year, and other multi company in service drills as well.

It's not as difficult to do both fire and EMS, or police and EMS, as you would like to believe.
 
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