DC Firefighters whine about name change.

[JPINFV]

Theres a difference between someone being trusted with 60 different drugs who wants nothing to do with them, and someone being trusted with a charged hose who wants nothing to do with it.

Actually, I'd argue that there's very little difference. If I was a fire fighter, I would not want the person who had my back to have zero interest in fire fighting. Similarly, if I'm a patient, I don't want the person administering drugs to me to have zero interest in EMS. Unfortunately, the people who have zero interest in EMS far outnumber the people who have zero interest in fire suppression at EMS based fire suppression services.

 

[46Young]

Every Ambulance, Engine, Truck, Rescue Squad, Reserve apparatus, Chiefs car, supervisor vehicle, repair truck, etc, etc, etc now has to be taken in from the road, changeover needs to occur OR a company needs to be placed out of service so a freaking sticker can be placed on. Now factor in fuel costs, wear and tear on the vehicle, buying the stickers/decals, the cost in manpower which SHOULD be doing something else more productive. Easily tallies in the 100k mark.
And cry me a friggin river about, "private EMS this, that, and everything else." Private EMS is a SCAB, and should be relegated to interfacility transports ONLY! I was a hospital based paramedic in South Jersey , running my tail off, working bad hours because management could make me do it. I worked nights where in 12hrs, we had 30+ dispatches for service, and was there until 1030am completing my charts. I CHOSE to move, become a Fire Based Paramedic (but not a FireMedic for this dept), take a 50% pay cut, and become union protected.

Best of luck to DCFD.

I agree that 911 EMS should be 100% municipal. You also don't see SSM in a fire based system, although you can see it with a third service PUM, such as RAA (Richmond).

 

[46Young]

Funny, my current hospital based job has and has had massively better equipment than my last FD job, or any FD based transport in this area. What I'm saying is you can't generalize public=good, private=bad. Our medicine is light years ahead of my last FD job, but my first FD job was in the cutting edge.

When did the "customer" (i.e. patient) coming first become a bad thing?

The only place I have ever been asked to change a report so it was "easier to bill" had "Fire" in it's name. That's between two FDs and three private providers (one air, two ground).

I'm not blaming public employees for the budget crunch. I do actually hope you pension and other benefits are there come retirement time for you. A whole slew of people don't share my view though, and I would be fully prepared for that.

What REALLY pissed me off though was the description of me as a "scab" when there's not mire than 5 out of 100+ paramedics at my last FD I would trust to take care of my family. Those guys are the "scabs and scrubs" not a dedicated private service medic.

"Scab" is a little much. I have seen what happens when you have EMS provided by a for profit system (or a not for profit system, but it's still run like a business), though. I feel it's a conflict of interest when profit is involved.

 

[46Young]

Theres a difference between someone being trusted with 60 different drugs who wants nothing to do with them, and someone being trusted with a charged hose who wants nothing to do with it.

Not really, someone can get killed either way.

 

[usalsfyre]

"Scab" is a little much. I have seen what happens when you have EMS provided by a for profit system (or a not for profit system, but it's still run like a business), though. I feel it's a conflict of interest when profit is involved.

This is an organizational culture issue. Like I said, the last FD I worked at mentioned the "4 million we contribute towards the City budget" every time we had any kind of meeting with admin types. They also asked me on multiple occasions to come in and "change some wording so this will be easier to bill". Overtime was scrutinized, we ran short regularlly because "we haven't budgeted for the overtime". Vacation was revoked if someone else hot injured and put you over the max number that were allowed off.

Current job (not-for-profit hospital) ask only that I document accurately and completely and does not scour over OT.

 

[Veneficus]

wow,

This is all a really exciting conversation. That we all have had many times.

But are some radical thoughts.

Government employees should not be "entitled" to any higher pay than non government employees. You can argue social systems all you like, but the payroll and benefits of government workers far outstrip the private sector.

So you cannot argue for reduction in government spending and disproportionate raises and benefits for government workers.

If you can do better than the government job, you should go there, but don't hold your breath. The government is not responsible for provding a better life and working conditions for you than you could get otherwise.

From what I have learned about DCFD, the responsible choice would be to go to BLS only and field more ambulances.

I was a firefighter, I realize the shortcomings of the fire service. It is why left. But when arguing about call volume, it is a double edged sword. It takes manpower to fight fire. It takes lots of equipment initially, not in an hour from various mutual aid. Fire suppression is an essential service and it costs a lot.

Various political bodies over the years have decided to reduce funding for it in order to pay for more visible things that win votes. In many places this has left the fire service totally ineffective and simply a waste of what money is spent on it because it cannot effectively fulfill its mission.

Public will is just as responsible for the largely ineffective merging of fire/ems in many places.

If you want good fire service and good EMS, you have to pay for it. Like insurance, hopefully you never need it. But you will be considerably dissapointed if you find yourself underinsured and do require it.

If people want effective fire and super EMS, if they don't want to pay for it, they should STFU.

Changing decals and stationary is not as major of an expense as portrayed. Most private corperations in all aspects of industry pay for that out of already budgeted spending. It is also very finite spending. If it costs even a million dollars one time, that money would not sustain a pay raise for even one cycle in such a large department. It couldn't pay for the training, payroll, and benefits of 1 firefighter for 1 year. (which i might add is far more in cost than what a welfare recipient gets in a year) So if you are truly looking to save money, it is better to cut things more expensive right?

 

[BLSBoy]

The Federal Government shouldn't be funding local services anyways. Division of government! How does it work? The constitution! How does it work?

No arguement here. FireACT, SAFER, etc, all that money should be kept at the local level.
The STATES are required to provide a Medicade program. Out of a $70 billion dollar budget (roughly) in the state of Florida, (roughly) $20 billion will be going to Medicade. How could that money be spent better? Hmmmmmmmmmm.........

 

[DesertMedic66]

Yet we continue to send fire engines needlessly to medical calls hauling around tons of material that are absolutely not needed for a medical call. A simple squad car would be more efficient than putting all of that mileage on an engine or truck.
?

not trying to start anything but as for my city this would not work. we have 3 firefighters on duty at all times. we have 2 engines and a squad unit. if we dedicated just using only the squad unit to go to medical calls then you would have to pay for at least 2 more firefighters on duty at all times as well as a new station for them to sleep at since ours only sleeps 4, and the firefighters here work 72 hours and sometimes get forced to do 96 hour shifts so they really need a place to sleep. so from what i see having an engine respond is alot cheaper then having a squad unit dedicated to running EMS calls.

and actually replacing all the decals would cost money. as for the engines here they would have to be repainted because its not just a decal. but you would have to most likely pay an engineer overtime to drive the engine to the shop. along with gas, mileage, and time. when we take a engine into the shop we take all the equipment out.

 

[usalsfyre]

not trying to start anything but as for my city this would not work. we have 3 firefighters on duty at all times. we have 2 engines and a squad unit. if we dedicated just using only the squad unit to go to medical calls then you would have to pay for at least 2 more firefighters on duty at all times as well as a new station for them to sleep at since ours only sleeps 4, and the firefighters here work 72 hours and sometimes get forced to do 96 hour shifts so they really need a place to sleep. so from what i see having an engine respond is alot cheaper then having a squad unit dedicated to running EMS calls.

and actually replacing all the decals would cost money. as for the engines here they would have to be repainted because its not just a decal. but you would have to most likely pay an engineer overtime to drive the engine to the shop. along with gas, mileage, and time. when we take a engine into the shop we take all the equipment out.

Or the engine crew could single pull the squad and engine. Three is not enough to do interior attack anyway, so the "splitting the crew up" argument doesn't wash. And a decal could easily be placed over the existing painted insignia. FD's are going to start thinking outside the box, or staff will be cut.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Or the engine crew could single pull the squad and engine. And a decal could easily be placed over the existing painted insignia. FD's are going to start thinking outside the box, or staff will be cut.

what do you mean by single pull? and the decal wouldnt work in this area. our firefighters are content on keeping a clean engine and a decal on the would would be taken off really fast. the only decal we have on the engine is a MDA support decal. why have a nice paintjob with a clear coat just to slap on a cheap decal?

 

[usalsfyre]

Single pull means you run the apparatus as needed. Meaning squad for medicals, engine for fires and alarms, ect. The other truck, and prbly one person on medicals, is left behind to bring the other truck as needed.

As for the decal over the paint job? Cost savings. And if the decal cones off so they can "keep a clean engine"? Write up the whole shift for destroying property the first time it happens. The second time? People start examining their career options. Do I like it? Not really. But cost effecincy is going to be big in the near future. The post 9/11 honeymoon is over.

 

[Veneficus]

what do you mean by single pull? and the decal wouldnt work in this area. our firefighters are content on keeping a clean engine and a decal on the would would be taken off really fast. the only decal we have on the engine is a MDA support decal. why have a nice paintjob with a clear coat just to slap on a cheap decal?

If you have time to clean off a decal, you don't see enough fire to buy a fire truck anyway.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Single pull means you run the apparatus as needed. Meaning squad for medicals, engine for fires and alarms, ect. The other truck, and prbly one person on medicals, is left behind to bring the other truck as needed.

As for the decal over the paint job? Cost savings. And if the decal cones off so they can "keep a clean engine"? Write up the whole shift for destroying property the first time it happens. The second time? People start examining their career options. Do I like it? Not really. But cost effecincy is going to be big in the near future. The post 9/11 honeymoon is over.

if your out on a medical call and a fire gets reported you would have to drive possibly across town to get the engine and then drive to the reported fire. and we never have 1 person working. the buddy system. and having 2 people on the engine isnt going to help. if only 2 firefighters on on scene of a fire and they need to make entry into the building its not possible. the engineer has to stay by the engine to control the pump. that would leave one firefighter to make entry. A rule is "2 in and 2 out". and then you would be leaving one person at the medical call. again the buddy system comes into play. i would not want to be the only person on a call.

 

[DesertMedic66]

If you have time to clean off a decal, you don't see enough fire to buy a fire truck anyway.

my old station has gone 24 hours and 52 mins without a call. and then there are days when we would get pounded. we make time to attempt to wash the engine. we will have soap all over the engine and then get a call and have to quickly wash the soap off. the decals we have are on the inside of the windows so they stay clean. with the abuse some of the engines see the decal will not stay on. when we get back from a fire we wash all the equipment and the engine. we get alot of calls for fires during the summer because im in SoCal. but we still have time to wash and we definatly need an engine.

 

[usalsfyre]

if your out on a medical call and a fire gets reported you would have to drive possibly across town to get the engine and then drive to the reported fire. and we never have 1 person working. the buddy system. and having 2 people on the engine isnt going to help. if only 2 firefighters on on scene of a fire and they need to make entry into the building its not possible. the engineer has to stay by the engine to control the pump. that would leave one firefighter to make entry. A rule is "2 in and 2 out". and then you would be leaving one person at the medical call. again the buddy system comes into play. i would not want to be the only person on a call.

How do you follow "two-in-two-out" (meaning two inside the IDLH atmosphere and two outside it ready to immediately render assistance, NOT "two go in, two go out")with a three person crew? Because with three person staffing you dang well better be a "squirt water through the window" FD unless you've got a life safety issue. And a car in the driveway isn't proof, especially if your dragging a line in and putting the fire out instead of making a rapid search.

So what happens now if the entire engine crew is across town on a medical? Do you abandon the patient to run the fire? You still have to drive across town right? How do you follow the "buddy system" with three firefighters? How do you set up incident command when your only outside person is assigned to another task?

 

[DesertMedic66]

How do you follow "two-in-two-out" (meaning two inside the IDLH atmosphere and two outside it ready to immediately render assistance, NOT "two go in, two go out")with a three person crew? Because with three person staffing you dang well better be a "squirt water through the window" FD unless you've got a life safety issue. And a car in the driveway isn't proof, especially if your dragging a line in and putting the fire out instead of making a rapid search.

So what happens now if the entire engine crew is across town on a medical? Do you abandon the patient to run the fire? You still have to drive across town right? How do you follow the "buddy system" with three firefighters? How do you set up incident command when your only outside person is assigned to another task?

by 2 in and 2 out i meant "2 go in and 2 come out". wel will have 2 firefighters gaining entry into the building as the 3rd firefighter who is the engineer stays outside and handles the pump and also takes over incident commander of the scene. as soon as the second engine arrives on scene they are the RIC team "rapid intervention crew". as soon as a reported fire gets reported we automatically send out 3 engines. if we are on a medical call we will wait for the ambulance to arrive then ask if they need assistance. if they do then we stay. if they dont then we gear up as we are driving to the fire.

 

[Aidey]

Right now the Rosenbaum family has DC FEMS in between a rock and a hard spot (as they should). DC has two options, change or get their pants sued off of them. We all know that the city would lose that lawsuit big time. I am actually impressed at the choice the family made to try and enact change rather than just collect multiple millions.

Although, at this point if the city doesn't get their butt in gear I wouldn't blame the family if they sued, and then used the money to start a private ambulance company to make up for the abysmal care provided by FEMS. I can think of at least two other high profile screw ups that have happened since Rosenbaum that resulted in a patient's death.*

I have a modicum of sympathy that the FFs have to pay for uniform items themselves. However, they probably could have avoided getting in this situation had they got their act together long ago. And the very small amount of sympathy I have is pretty much eliminated by the FFs acting like petulant children over the whole thing.


*Young child with pneumonia and guy having an MI diagnosed as 'indigestion'.

 

[usalsfyre]

by 2 in and 2 out i meant "2 go in and 2 come out". wel will have 2 firefighters gaining entry into the building as the 3rd firefighter who is the engineer stays outside and handles the pump and also takes over incident commander of the scene. as soon as the second engine arrives on scene they are the RIC team "rapid intervention crew". as soon as a reported fire gets reported we automatically send out 3 engines. if we are on a medical call we will wait for the ambulance to arrive then ask if they need assistance. if they do then we stay. if they dont then we gear up as we are driving to the fire.

Firefite, I'm way off topic here, but I'll say this. You need to think long and hard about continuing with this department if this is the way you operate. Fire service standards, like many others, are written in blood. 2 in 2 out is an absolute requirement. If the roof should fall in while your inside prior to anyone being there to help you, your dependents will most likely not receive the PSOB as you were involved in what was essentially an illegal operation. The "incident commander" being on the pump panel is laughable, how is he going to watch fire conditions? If you get ejected while dressing out enroutre, again no PSOB and you died before you could ever get to the scene.

I work part time for a department that has three in shift. It sucks waiting for mutual aid. But I refuse to do anything overly dangerous for property. It can be replaced. I can't. Several years ago our county had two guys die in a house that was empty, and most of the contents was burned up long before they died. Why were the there? "Because that's what fireman do!" That's just not a good enough excuse to tell my kids anymore.

 

[medic417]

Firefite, I'm way off topic here, but I'll say this. You need to think long and hard about continuing with this department if this is the way you operate. Fire service standards, like many others, are written in blood. 2 in 2 out is an absolute requirement. If the roof should fall in while your inside prior to anyone being there to help you, your dependents will most likely not receive the PSOB as you were involved in what was essentially an illegal operation. The "incident commander" being on the pump panel is laughable, how is he going to watch fire conditions? If you get ejected while dressing out enroutre, again no PSOB and you died before you could ever get to the scene.

I work part time for a department that has three in shift. It sucks waiting for mutual aid. But I refuse to do anything overly dangerous for property. It can be replaced. I can't. Several years ago our county had two guys die in a house that was empty, and most of the contents was burned up long before they died. Why were the there? "Because that's what fireman do!" That's just not a good enough excuse to tell my kids anymore.

I thought the rules had changed that for 2 in you had to have 4 out. Theory being needed 2 people to drag each ff that went down out of the fire. Maybe that was just a smart suggestion that never got implemented because to many consider it cheaper to replace a ff than to protect them.

 

[jgmedic]

not trying to start anything but as for my city this would not work. we have 3 firefighters on duty at all times. we have 2 engines and a squad unit. if we dedicated just using only the squad unit to go to medical calls then you would have to pay for at least 2 more firefighters on duty at all times as well as a new station for them to sleep at since ours only sleeps 4, and the firefighters here work 72 hours and sometimes get forced to do 96 hour shifts so they really need a place to sleep. so from what i see having an engine respond is alot cheaper then having a squad unit dedicated to running EMS calls.

and actually replacing all the decals would cost money. as for the engines here they would have to be repainted because its not just a decal. but you would have to most likely pay an engineer overtime to drive the engine to the shop. along with gas, mileage, and time. when we take a engine into the shop we take all the equipment out.

How often is 266 fully staffed? Is the squad all volly staffed like S72 is? CDF is a whole different ballgame from most municipal FD's. I'll agree their schedule is ridiculous if you're at a busy house, but as a whole, the Pass isn't all that crazy. Plus the squad thing works at some CDF stations. So it could work, how bout if they pulled E266, put 2 medics on the squad and made 66 BLS?