Crew Members Under 18 / High School Age Members

folks... I've merged the 2 threads on the "Junior Member" discussion, just so that we don't have to repeat ourselves, as they are both active right now.

Jon
EMTLife CL
 
Jeremy89 said:
So I guess I'm confused as to what you guys (Rid, Flight-LP...) are saying. Maybe some of you have had bad experience with younger EMT's?? That's fine, but you can't stereotype everyone by their age. Heck, there are 30 year olds that can't make decisions under pressure. Age is just a number and by no means defines how competent a person is. It can provide a guideline for such, but it must be taken on a situation specific basis. Yes, I agree there are many people in EMS that shouldn't be, but the fact is that they are there because they passed a test and someone felt they were qualified to provide care for others.

I just can't understand why age is such a big issue.... Please feel free to elaborate, but play nice...
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Actually I can stereotype by age. CHILDREN belong in school, not on an ambulance. I do not have time to babysit a kid while functioning as a Paramedic, nor do I need to worry about their safety while in a potentially volatile environment. Or one of them playing with a dirty needle and stabbing themselves. Or one mouthing off to a patients family because he didn't like the way they were treating their teenage daughter (all have happened to me personally, part of the reason why kids are no longer allowed on our ambulances). In many cases I 'm not worried about the child themselves, but more their moronic sue-happy parents. Finish High School, then obtain your EMT-B. As Rid stated, most of my high school seniors do not ever take the NR exam. They are disinterested in the acquisition of education, they want to see the cool :censored::censored::censored::censored: (quoted verbatim from a student).

Sure they passed a test, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans around here. Very few Basics run 911 to begin with and all paid local agencies run Paramedics on each truck. So unlike some area like Darien, Ct., we actually have professionals to run our EMS and do not feel the need to allow uneducated kids run around on an ambulance. For every one of our openings, we get many applications. We hire experienced, mature, and career minded EMT's, children need not apply............................

Besides, Texas was smart enough to regulate that all EMT's will be over the age of 18! :)
 
This is a profession, not a baby sitting organization. If you do not perform care, and just there to watch, go to the movies. I do not have time, nor should I have to have the responsibility to watch you, partner, and then the patient as well.

This is why EMT courses in high school is declining. As well, most EMS services do not want riders, voyeurs on the ambulance. Sorry, I do NOT see volunteers in ER performing or even watching procedures.. it's called patient privacy for a reason. The volunteers are allowed to deliver charts, ice, and be gofers (go for this and that) and that's it. Even LPN's which are licensed nurses are not even allowed to work in critical care areas.. and you assume a volunteer is able to? C'mon let's get real!

Want more information, I suggest googling National EMS Educators Association, JEMS, Psychology for Health Care Educators, etc. Do a lit research..

Obviously, you have never seen or dealt with those in EMS that suffer PTSD. I have and still do, it is not pretty and it is devastating to those that have it. Even the strong, older medics that have experience can suffer it. Now, let's reclarify that it more prominent to those that are younger and lack personal life history. So why, would a medical community want to even endanger or expose to youth to a possible problem? Has it happened? How many times.. whom knows? I know of at least two, and that is too many. Who is going to be responsible?

Sorry, one does not have to be "exposed" or be placed in a working environment to obtain knowledge before going to an adult level EMT course. Sorry, observers are just voyeurs.
Since you do not really represent an educational institution, patient privacy should be concern. Do the medics ask prior to observing if it is okay with them? Do they even have an option?

I do not understand the "hurry"? EMS will be there, for mature, well educated individuals. Go to school, obtain lab and clinical experience, then enter the profession like all other professions.

In the future, there will be tougher and more restrictions for those entering the profession. It is in the making now, we have too. You are right "Baby Boomers" are going to be a problem, we will need professionals to deliver that care.

p.s : You ask how many"real patient interaction" I have encountered? Take your age and double it + some, that will get you the number of years. For patients, it would be literally in the thousands. I routinely respond to at least 12-16 emergency calls per shift on EMS (ten days a month), and in ER usually see at least 20-30 patients myself, ICU three patients (with Christmas trees) at the least 1 on a vent.. Is that enough patient's or experience, would you like to compare numbers?

R/r 911
 
Flight-LP said:
We hire experienced, mature, and career minded EMT's, children need not apply............................
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How is one supposed to get experience if no one will hire without experience? If one can say that he/she is familiar with some aspects of patient care through volunteering/observing at an ER or an ambo, I would be much more likely to choose that person over some guy who just completed his EMT course.

Flight-LP said:
Besides, Texas was smart enough to regulate that all EMT's will be over the age of 18! :)
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So is Arizona. I am 19. What is the exact "age of responsibility"? When does one stop being referred to as a "child" and start being called an adult??? No matter what your opinion is, again, you can't assume that stereotype applies to all people that age. If people were more open minded about younger people, I might have a job by now. Frankly, I think the hiring manager(s) sees "Birthday: 5/3/89" and throws the application out before reading anymore. Unfortunately there's nothing I can do because (to my knowledge) employer's are able to discriminate by age.
 
Jeremy89 said:
How is one supposed to get experience if no one will hire without experience? If one can say that he/she is familiar with some aspects of patient care through volunteering/observing at an ER or an ambo, I would be much more likely to choose that person over some guy who just completed his EMT course.



So is Arizona. I am 19. What is the exact "age of responsibility"? When does one stop being referred to as a "child" and start being called an adult??? No matter what your opinion is, again, you can't assume that stereotype applies to all people that age. If people were more open minded about younger people, I might have a job by now. Frankly, I think the hiring manager(s) sees "Birthday: 5/3/89" and throws the application out before reading anymore. Unfortunately there's nothing I can do because (to my knowledge) employer's are able to discriminate by age.
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Watching is not experience, you can do that on youtube! Gain experience working interfacility transfers for a private company. Become proficient in assessing patients, obtaining vitals, writing documentation, and interpersonal communication / interaction. Or better yet, go to Paramedic school. Gain a valuable education in the process................

You seem to be having a comprehension issue. I am referring to individuals under the age of 18 as children, the same interpretation that many state's have. The question presented was pertaining to kids being on an ambulance, not you and your limited experience. That particular question has been answered. Again, YES I can stereotype people by age, just as insurance companies and EMS agencies do everyday. Sorry if thats an issue for you.........
 
Ridryder911 said:
Sorry, observers are just voyeurs.
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Dictionary.com said:
vo·yeur

a person who engages in voyeurism.

Compare Peeping Tom.
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Dictionary.com said:
vo·yeur·ism

–noun the practice of obtaining sexual gratification by looking at sexual objects or acts, esp. secretively.
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Sorry. It's a word you don't see all the time, so I had to look it up.
 
Flight-LP said:
Watching is not experience, you can do that on youtube! Gain experience working interfacility transfers for a private company. Become proficient in assessing patients, obtaining vitals, writing documentation, and interpersonal communication / interaction. Or better yet, go to Paramedic school. Gain a valuable education in the process................
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Sounds like what I do every Tuesday 7-11pm and Saturday 9-7pm. And Paramedic will start in less than a year(hopefully) So now in your eyes can I be on an ambulance?
 
Ridryder911 said:
This is a profession, not a baby sitting organization. If you do not perform care, and just there to watch, go to the movies. I do not have time, nor should I have to have the responsibility to watch you, partner, and then the patient as well.
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Really? I guess we can throw out medical school because there are medical students who are in the hospital to observe. There was a whole division of paramedic program set to "observe" medics in the ambulance and nurses and MDs in the hospital. There seems to be alot of observing going on in the medic profession.

This is why EMT courses in high school is declining. As well, most EMS services do not want riders, voyeurs on the ambulance.
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This nonsense. EMT classes here are filled with 17 and 18 year olds. The EMT-B profession pays $10/hr. The only people who fill this position are 18 to 25.

Sorry, I do NOT see volunteers in ER performing or even watching procedures.. it's called patient privacy for a reason.
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Volunteers are not allowed to perform procedures for insurance. Not for privacy reasons. Volunteers do in fact watch becuase what there asked to do puts them in patient areas. Some volunteer programs have volunteers following doctors, PA are other professionals. Voluneers work in the ER. Its a fact.

Want more information, I suggest googling National EMS Educators Association, JEMS, Psychology for Health Care Educators, etc. Do a lit research..
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I have doen research. Thank you.

Obviously, you have never seen or dealt with those in EMS that suffer PTSD. I have and still do, it is not pretty and it is devastating to those that have it. Even the strong, older medics that have experience can suffer it.
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Are we talking about people under 18 or just threats to anyone in EMS? PTSD is aproblem for all EMS personnel, Cops, fireifighters, Doctors, nurses and just about everyone who does anything in the real world. PTSD doesn't just attack EMS workers or teenagers on a call.

Now, let's reclarify that it more prominent to those that are younger and lack personal life history. So why, would a medical community want to even endanger or expose to youth to a possible problem? Has it happened? How many times.. whom knows? I know of at least two, and that is too many. Who is going to be responsible?
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Lack personal life history? I am sorry but "youths" are exposed to things that cause PTSD outside of EMS all the time.



Since you do not really represent an educational institution, patient privacy should be concern. Do the medics ask prior to observing if it is okay with them? Do they even have an option?
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Actually we do represent an educational institution. Youth corp are put into CPR classes, PPE classes and required to become familiar with all the equipment on an ambulance. The medics actually love to have youth corp members. The youth corp members actually have a desire to learn unlike many of their adult EMT-B counterparts.



p.s : You ask how many"real patient interaction" I have encountered?
R/r 911
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You seem to infer every call you take is major trauma. It isn't. EMS is not like the Iraq war either. We have hundreds of kids go through our youth corp and go on to get in the medical profession. Somehow none of them get PTSD. Many of these go to top notch private colleges and state schools before entering graduate level medical training. The worst thing we could do would be discontinue this program because some people want to be overly cautious. They don't want responsibility in teaching teenagers. The number of MDs out of youth corp are growning. These people will be my boss in several years and I am damn proud to get them started. Currently there are 2 former youth corp members in med school. We have 2 more who just got accepted. It started somewhere.
 
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firecoins said:
Really? I guess we can throw out medical school because there are medical students who are in the hospital to observe. There was a whole division of paramedic program set to "observe" medics in the ambulance and nurses and MDs in the hospital. There seems to be alot of observing going on in the medic profession.
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Bad distinction. One category (health care students) are getting experience that is directly relevant to their current education. Pre-meds are not in a medical degree program, and as such, do not fit into this category. The reality, though, is that the participation of volunteers is determined not only by the setup of the program, but also by the volunteers themselves. This is why, even in the same program, one volunteer can be involved in patient care while another is stuck restocking the supply cart.
This nonsense. EMT classes here are filled with 17 and 18 year olds. The EMT-B profession pays $10/hr. The only people who fill this position are 18 to 25.
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Supply>demand=low wages. Low barrier to entry (110 hours)=low wages. The company I worked for (in So. Cal.) had plenty of people in the >25y/o category and the crews I see parked outside of the local dialysis clinic in Boston seem to have an even higher percentage of >25y/o working for them.

Lack personal life history? I am sorry but "youths" are exposed to things that cause PTSD outside of EMS all the time.
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"Other stuff happens" is a poor argument. It would be like saying, "Don't worry about this toxin, after all the kids are probably exposed to lead paint anyways." Just because "other stuff happens" doesn't mean we shouldn't work to reduce "stuff" in addition to "other stuff."
 
well...I will have to say this has been a very informative discussion...and just for the record I am 18 yrs old and work 911 in a fairly large city along with working private tranfers/911....my "inexperienced" self was just offered a federal naval fire dept. position of a man soon to retire....and the way I see it is every single person on this forum is inexperienced.....there is always something to learn...always experience to gain....not to offend anyone of coarse.....:D:D
 
Sorry CPR, BSE are not usually considered formal classes, nor a youth corps considered a formal training institution. As well, medical students perform clinicals or rotations associated with an approved school, not observations.

I can tell many of you never have worked or been exposed to teaching hospitals or medical students, even P.A.or N.P. students. One usually have to complete a year of course work before even "making rounds". There is definitively a difference and distinction of making rounds and "observing". Ever heard of second year, third year, etc..? Those P.A. students I bet are not considered volunteers if you ask administration. They maybe volunteering their time, but I bet they as well do not consider themselves "volunteers".

I can assure at every hospital my students attend (nursing and paramedics alike) have to be cleared, immunized, as well as a formal set of objectives, list of skills authorized to perform, and liability insurance. Even my employees, has to have clearance to observe and be monitored by the medical director. Again, JCAHO is very firm whom can be in critical care areas.

I also challenge any "real" work from volunteers in ER. With the JCAHO and other ruling organizations, even technicians that are employed have very limited capabilities. Again, if LPN's are not able to function, I do doubt that a volunteer will be utilized. As well, not only for insurance purposes, but as well since the volunteers are NOT employees of the hospital, potential breech of confidentiality has to be concerned as well.

Want EMT salaries to go up? Quit training kids, as well as your courses should be more restrictive for entrance requirements. Alike other health care professionals there is a supply & demand. Even fire departments require one to be "legal age", again there is a reason.

Really, this discussion does not matter. Within a few years, the EMT role will change, it is a given. Most states will have to adopt to such regulations for insurance purposes and litigation coverage. Workmen's comp (which is extremely high in EMS) will require it be manned by adults. Paramedic education in most areas will be at least an associate degree (usually 3 years) in length so most will be at least 20-21 years of age by the time they finish.

I know of NO hospital in my area that allows any volunteers (most are above the age of 70 anyway) to participate in patient care.. as what? If they have no license or formal training, again I ask what are they really going to do? Do you as well ask each patient before they enter if it is okay to be "observed during treatment"?

R/r 911
 
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Ridryder911 said:
I know of NO hospital in my area that allows any volunteers (most are above the age of 70 anyway) to participate in patient care.. as what? If they have no license or formal training, again I ask what are they really going to do? Do you as well ask each patient before they enter if it is okay to be "observed during treatment"?

R/r 911
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The program I was a part of in college was geared solely to pre-healthcare students (nursing, med, allied health, etc) and was separate from the hospital auxiliary (mostly seniors and ran things like the book cart, information, gift store, etc). During the 6 months that I was in the ER, I essentially acted as an ER tech except I couldn't do 12 leads (the techs don't start IVs and the volunteers couldn't do 12 leads because it goes into the patient's chart). For example, some of the things I did was hook patient's up to monitors, transport lab specimens, patient transport (including solo if the patient didn't need to be monitored), CPR, assist with procedures (foley caths, got to watch a LP in case the doctor's phone rang [sterile procedure]), and restocking. In general, if it wasn't a situation where it was a 'more the merrier' (cardioversions, for example), yes permission was obtained (ex, watching an endoscopy for example). Of course the amount of 'action' that the volunteer was involved with almost completely depended on the level of self motivation of the volunteer and how well the volunteer got along with the ER staff.
 
Youth corp members. Get training. Observe ambulance operations and begin participation based on the individual's ability to perform. Hundred of high school students have gone through the program. Not one case of PTSD. No it doesn't demean EMS to have a training ground for high school students. This program will gladly continue to produce students going into the helath care and public service areas.

Hospitals have training programs for pre health high school and college students. So do local cops and firefighters.

I have an econ degree. $10 is the local pay for EMT-Bs doing interfacility transfers. There aren't enough EMT-Bs available either. There are always job openings. It doesn't appear there is an overabundant number of EMT's going round.

18 is legal age in the United States.
 
firecoins said:
Youth corp members. Get training. Observe ambulance operations and begin participation based on the individual's ability to perform. Hundred of high school students have gone through the program. Not one case of PTSD. No it doesn't demean EMS to have a training ground for high school students. This program will gladly continue to produce students going into the health care and public service areas.

Hospitals have training programs for pre health high school and college students. So do local cops and firefighters.

I have an econ degree. $10 is the local pay for EMT-Bs doing interfacility transfers. There aren't enough EMT-Bs available either. There are always job openings. It doesn't appear there is an overabundant number of EMT's going round.

18 is legal age in the United States.
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Are you for certain on those statements? You have access of each of those youth corps private medical records? Wow!

I am not talking about a formal institution, with authorized instructors; that have contracts with hospitals and have arranged clinical/observation time. That is whole different approach and idea. Your confusing clinicals with objectives with just observing to see something. As well, there is an acceptance for college age (career minded) than teenage kids.

Not an abundance of EMT"s? Well your the only part of the U.S. As well, if there was a real shortage the pay would increase, again law of supply and demand. Check out the states numbers of EMT's per state and I believe you will see that the U.S. is deluged with EMT's. Simply put, the reason is that in a few days there is always another class getting out. Why pay a decent wage when you can even get them for free? As well, again inter-facility transports as non-emergency usually is not considered EMS. Most of those utilize EMT's just for an EVO and to assist staff members.

As even evidenced here. Many that have great inspirations, only to find out what the "real" business is like. Many are disillusioned that the Basic EMT is considered a professional level, and at one time it was, now the course content has been diluted, no entry requirements, national testing has an over 80% pass rate, and from 2 -16 weeks duration; we have a new crop to pick from.

Like I described, its going to be a mute point. Liability, increased litigation, new and increasing privacy and HIPPA violations, workmen's comp coverage, etc. will remove only those that need to be there.

R/r911
 
No, age doesn't automatically guarantee maturity, but it does increase the odds. I automatically negate the validity of every young person who cries out about how mature they are. I've seen very mature young people, and none of them ever bragged about their maturity.
 
I agree with the lack of PTSD with youth members. I am close with a lot of the junior members in my corps. Most of the kids who have these "bad calls" or "f'd up calls" are motivated to keep working. Example, two girls who are friends with eachother joined our corps. Their very first call they had a double stabbing. They're now two very active members in our corps. I have come across very few junior members in my corps that have been worse than the senior members (even by percentage.)
 
There again is another misunderstanding of PTSD. It does not always "stop" the individual from performing or functioning at work or performing in their job. In fact two of the Explorer's I am aware of that experienced PTSD was never "reported" for any "write" up and they pursued into medicine, both becoming physicians.

I really doubt that most of the members posting here would be able to detect PTSD. Even psychological experts have a hard time diagnosing the syndrome. That is why CISD is considered such a crock of poop. Unfortunately, one of the signs of PTSD is that it is very well hidden, and especially never discussed among even close or family members. In fact, it has surprising high suicide rates which usually surprises those close to them.

I am not saying it affects all; but if we know scientifically that the mind is NOT ready, again why take the chance. This goes against medical ethics and technically liable if something should occur. We know the risks.. yet ignored the facts.

R/r 911
 
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