Crew Members Under 18 / High School Age Members

[John E]

It's not about being disrespectful towards teens, it's about teens being more respectful about their choice of careers and understanding that one of the realities of life is this, teenagers are immature. I wrote earlier in this thread that teenagers have a place in EMS, as observers, not as practitioners.

Teenagers seem to think that their wanting to be something gives them the same status as people who already are something. Respect is earned, not simply given because you think you have the right to demand it.

There are also a bunch of legal practicalities which rightly limit the ability for a teenager to work in EMS. Simply put, anyone who can't legally sign a contract or whose parent's are legally liable for their actions, has no place in a working EMS position. And those two things alone account for the overwhelming majority of teenagers.

John E.

 

[Kate]

Agree with minimum age of 16--sounds about right, including for Israel.

My point of view, again, is from Israel. And I'm making generalities.

Maturity: Americans enter life with little experience of being present to witness death or serious accident. Having a grandparent die (usually in a hospital or nursing home) or pet are not an adequate induction into a life of mature responsibilities.

Israel teens enter the emergency response system as mature teens. They grow up knowing they will soon take their place on the front lines of checkpoints and in incursions into Palestinian-held areas to try to find and destroy rocket launchers.

Israelis are brash and obnoxious, imo, but I've concluded that this not-nice behavior is somehow linked to their ability and readiness to deal appropriately with the worst of situations.

For the first two years that I lived here (2006-07) armed military personnel were on every city bus. So far, every person I know is no further than 2 degrees of separation from a terrorist victim.

These kids mature real fast.

 

[BossyCow]

I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of :censored::censored::censored::censored: for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.

First of all, your emotional response to what is actually people with experience trying to give you solid advice is precisely what is the issue with younger EMTs. No one is saying they don't respect you, and no one is saying that you don't possess more maturity than the average citizen of your age. But, there are maturity factors that are not present in teens of our culture.

I also take issue with the person from Israel, even though it may be culturally acceptable to treat teens as adults in your country, physiologically there are vast changes going on in the frontal lobe at that time, governing impulse control, judgement and thought organization. Waiting until that settles out is just as valid as waiting until the feet hit the pedals before handing out a driver's license.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for teens your age. I've raised 5 of them! But, respect doesn't mean that you are oblivious to the areas where they aren't adult yet. We need to encourage your age group to do as much as they are able, and even to stretch those limits. But understand, there are limits.

We have a junior program in our system. We have younger kids who sit in on classes, participate in drills. They are not allowed by our insurance agency to enter burning buildings, attend MVAs, drive rigs or be present on medical calls. As much for their physical protection as their emotional protection.

As you mature, you will understand what we meant by maturity and hopefully recognize what parts of it you were missing. As I stated before, I've known some incredibly mature teens, and not one of them ever talked about how mature they were.

 

[Kate]

Re triemal04 post: "have you always lived in Israel, and if not, for how long, and where did you move from?" Lived in Seattle since 1959 (I'm 57), in Israel for 2 1/2 years.

 

[LucidResq]

I'd like to throw a rock into this discussion.

Check out my search and rescue team.

Over 50 years of youth-led search and rescue. And when I say youth-led, I mean it. Our team is entirely staffed by high school students. Adult former members take care of training, administration, legalities, and finances, but in the field it's all youth-run.

It's definitely worked out well. We have a great track record and reputation with other teams in the state. From what I've seen, we've had generally the same type and number of disciplinary incidents as any other emergency services agency.

No member deaths or serious injuries in over 50 years, which is an excellent record considering over 2,000 young people have been on the team and we do technical rescue, mountain SAR, and drive emergency vehicles.. Although our members see more tragedy than the average teenager, we all turn out alright. We're not these overly fragile beings, and I think more harm is done when adults are overprotective and shelter their children from hardship and tragedy. I think we are much more humble, appreciative, grateful responsible, and thoughtful than others our age. I can say with confidence that we are much more prepared to deal with the real world than others our age. I don't feel like any of us have crazy long-standing emotional/psychological damage.

Yes, I will never forget the one unsuccessful search I've been on. I'll never forget the man we searched for, who died, and I'll never stop wondering if I could've done more. Yes, that incident, and a handful of others, have made me cry or have stayed on my mind for a long time. I think that's okay though. I very strongly believe that I am a much better and wiser person thanks to these experiences. I don't feel like I've been emotionally traumatized or anything.

As far as the community, I don't believe they're being deprived of anything they would have with an adult SAR team. Yes, with age comes wisdom, but youth has its perks too. We are well-trained and those who do not have the inherent maturity and mental capability to serve on the team do not last long.

I realize that SAR is not the same as straight EMS, and to be honest I'm not really comfortable with the idea of anyone under the age of 17-18 working in straight EMS. Although we do occasionally provide emergency medical care, we are essentially working in the pre-prehospital setting, so it works well.

 

[Kate]

Listen to the Pro's

accidental duplicate; requested deletion

 

[Kate]

Listen to the Pro's

I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of :censored::censored::censored::censored: for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.

To the teens chomping at the bit to jump into EMR and be heroes: first go "Karate Kid" (“wax on, wax off”) and master the basic-basics. Keep in mind that the only person you can change is yourself. Study more than required and do exactly what you are asked to do without a word of complaint. Be the person willing to do the dirtiest clean up, wash the tires, put clean sheets on stretchers or whatever no one wants to do. Think outside the box for more learning: ex, attend every conference related to emergency medicine and check with the King County Examiner's Office (at Harborview) or Harborview’s own morgue to see if you can get permission to attend autopsies--an excellent way to get more anatomy education. Word will get around among the professionals that you are a team member-in-the-making, and that you are worth their valuable time to train you and give you more responsibility.

My own example and not-so-brief-background: At age 39 I began volunteering at the HarborviewMedicalCenter trauma center (Level 1) with the goal of gaining exposure to medicine, finishing my degree, and applying for medical school. Young kids and lack of money pre-empted medical school, but I stayed with Harborview for almost 17 years. After ~300 hours of volunteering in the ER and mastering bandage rolling and crutch assembly, I began working my way up through the system, clerking on medicine and surgery floors. I spent unpaid hours making my ward the most organized--and so I was asked to train new clerks and consult on "organization-challenged" wards. I went in hours early to read medical texts in the doc's work room. I attended post-mortems and noon conferences for medical students and interns (hiding in the back of the room to avoid being called on--usually worked), etc. After 7 years advanced to position as admin assistant to the medical director of the new infectious diseases specialty clinic--we created it—and a coveted position of patient care coordinator. Then asked to be managing editor of an HIV Update for medical care providers, and managing editor and staff writer for an Infectious Disease newsletter for prison medical care providers. Was permitted to start my own cme noon conference (Infectious Disease Lunch & Learn) for docs et al. Took courses in human behavior, self-study of marketing research; ideas from this led to being asked to become paid speaker on HIV antiretroviral medical adherence in clinics and at dinner meetings in WA, OR, CA, & TX. Last project included travel to FL prison, and became advocate for inmate peer HIV/HCV health education in WA & MT correctional facilities. I loved this work and it was possible because I was committed to doing the not-cool stuff in the beginning.

If you make the lives of the professionals easier and study like crazy, then you *will* be asked to do more interesting things and made to feel you are a valued part of the team.


Write me privately if you want to talk over specific issues.

 

[Kate]

"I also take issue with the person from Israel, even though it may be culturally acceptable to treat teens as adults in your country, physiologically there are vast changes going on in the frontal lobe at that time, governing impulse control, judgement and thought organization. Waiting until that settles out is just as valid as waiting until the feet hit the pedals before handing out a driver's license."

To clarify: Israelis mature and *become* adults at a younger age and out of necessity. It is a reality.

As for the frontal lobe development, the brain maps neurological pathways based on experience. If we wait until an infant should be able to handle walking without falling, if we wait to speak to them until they should be talking, then the window of walk & talk brain development will not map properly. It's a model for human growth throughout our lives. (I'm a psych major--doesn't make me an expert, I realize). Brain research shows that there are significant changes going on in the brain throughout our lives. Testosterone levels also have a lot to do with behavior, regardless of age. Frontal lobe development, neurological pathways, and testosterone levels are only a few of the pieces of the puzzle of human development.

 

[Ridryder911]

I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of :censored::censored::censored::censored: for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.

The reason you can not understand is because of maturity level. Even though we allow 18 year olds to fight in a war, we still do not allow them to become Police officers until they are at least of the age of 21. Is this fair as well? Why do allow them to carry a gun in warfare, but in civillian duties? The reason, is maturity and as a soldier they are governed and supervised by officers.

I am not judging a book by its cover, rather I am judging by scientific facts, period. Prove to me otherwise.... you can't. The brain physiologically is NOT full developed for critical thinking skills until nearly the age of 25. This again is a proven and well documented facts. There is child laws for a reason, as well why insurance corporations that prohibit children to work in dangerous environments. Do you not think it would be much cheaper and easier to use children? Sorry, until you truly have experience in providing and managing EMS services, your opinion is meaningless.

As well, where did you ever assume that most EMT squads are volunteers? Sorry, my state has very few EMS volunteers..as well most require the minimum age of 21. Again, there is valid reason.

Where to start.. go to college, get your education, get clinical exposures with detailed objectives, education prior to exposure, monitored by a licensed person, and old enough to be responsible for your own actions (litigation and life experience). Just alike any other health care profession, EMS should not and will not be an exception. Can you or your family afford a 1/2 million dollar litigation law suit? Like to see your family loose their house, because you wanted to do something "neat & fun"? Again, a mature and rationale person would consider this very seriously.

Again, I ask the question: "What is the hurry?"..


In regards to Israel , ever watch their treatment and methods? ...

R/r 911

 

[Kate]

"...US and Israel. The reality between the two is very different also, though not that much different from the perception. (Hollywood actually has gotten something mostly right for a change)”

Would you expand on the Hollywood allusion? Movie/s? I’d be interested to know.

In regards to Israel , ever watch their treatment and methods? ... R/r 911

I haven’t seen their ER crews in action; what sort of tx/methods? Am curious to know, especially since it sounded as though you experienced something you disagreed with.

In Jerusalem, the sole piece of their emergency (or urgency) equipment I’ve seen in action first hand (3 times) is the tiny tank-looking vehicle used to deal with a suspicious packages. At least a block around the package is cordoned off. The tank-let w/cameras trundles out of its van and is remotely guided to the package so that an examination can be made without risk to to human life. Block-long cables are strung ahead of time to hoist and shake the package contents loose. The response is rapid and organized, with police, military, emergency medical, and bomb technicians all standing by. And tourists look on and record the event for home movies. For the past couple years it’s been someone’s forgotten backpack at a bus stop, thank God.

Thanks

 

[BossyCow]

Lucid, as a SAR officer, Wilderness First Aid/EMT instructor, and long term EMS instructor, let me first commend you for your dedication and your committment to professionalism.

However, SAR is very different from general EMS. One of the big differences is the physical component. Research shows that the best solution to stressful incidents is physical activity. Stress creates physiological changes in the body which are only dissipated by physical activity. SAR by its very nature has a built in coping mechanism for the stress of a call. The intense physical activity related to packing someone out of the wilderness mitigates much of the adrenalin rush.

Also, how many calls do you go on compared to an urban EMS system? How many times do you run back to back calls, or repeatedly get up in the middle of the night. SAR has a golden day, not a golden hour and is a very different ballgame. The activity is a lot more deliberate and less intense.

I don't mean to in any way belittle the value of what you do. I am intensely aware of what is involved in SAR as I have been in it for many years. But, your experience in SAR is not a valid criteria for judging the affect of EMS on youth.

 

[CFRBryan347768]

Originally Posted by Stillen GLE
I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.

From a my perspective(17) and what I have learned on this thread alone, is that EMS is not taken entirely seriously, which is why everyone is saying 18 is too young go to school get a better education and better experience so you can perform your EMS skills better. I've also realized that you might be able to perform what you learned in the class room very well but what happens when the pt. craps out and you have to use life experiences to help, their not saying not to not start some where but go to school and gain personal/emotional/and a bigger horizon of how the body works experience to help you be a better health care provider. Your not necessarily being put down, think of it like this, say you have a professional baseball team would you want a rookie jumping right in and trying to play? No, let them work their way up the ladder putting more time in playing baseball which would be like going to school to improve your healthcare knowledge. I my self do ride on an ambulance and yes this thread did anger me, but you have to look at it for the better of the EMS community not as you being put down. keep riding but go to school to improve your care. P.S. Just to back my words up by saying the whole go to school bit, im getting all of my pre req. for Nursing, and than going to work as a Paramedic(in that order just because of the timing.) Good luck to you and keep your head up

 

[LucidResq]

Lucid, as a SAR officer, Wilderness First Aid/EMT instructor, and long term EMS instructor, let me first commend you for your dedication and your committment to professionalism.

However, SAR is very different from general EMS. One of the big differences is the physical component. Research shows that the best solution to stressful incidents is physical activity. Stress creates physiological changes in the body which are only dissipated by physical activity. SAR by its very nature has a built in coping mechanism for the stress of a call. The intense physical activity related to packing someone out of the wilderness mitigates much of the adrenalin rush.

Also, how many calls do you go on compared to an urban EMS system? How many times do you run back to back calls, or repeatedly get up in the middle of the night. SAR has a golden day, not a golden hour and is a very different ballgame. The activity is a lot more deliberate and less intense.

I don't mean to in any way belittle the value of what you do. I am intensely aware of what is involved in SAR as I have been in it for many years. But, your experience in SAR is not a valid criteria for judging the affect of EMS on youth.

First of all, thank you very much.

Yes, I realize that general EMS is very different from SAR, you may have missed my last paragraph:

I realize that SAR is not the same as straight EMS, and to be honest I'm not really comfortable with the idea of anyone under the age of 17-18 working in straight EMS. Although we do occasionally provide emergency medical care, we are essentially working in the pre-prehospital setting, so it works well.

It's a totally different ball game. Although we do drive marked emergency vehicles, we very rarely run code to scenes and we NEVER transport anyone to the hospital. We always take patients to an LZ or an ambulance, usually by foot. I don't like the idea of teenagers taking patients to the hospital or acting as their primary EMS providers. However, I'm very comfortable with well-trained teenagers acting in SAR functions. Although people in SAR tend to be in excellent shape regardless of age, our youth is definitely an advantage because, as I'm sure you know, 75% of SAR is ground-pounding manual labor.

You also make a very good point about the physical activity. I've never really thought of it that way, but it's true.

But to make myself clear, I do not support the idea of youth working in straight EMS, driving ambulances and such. It is indeed a whole different ball game. I don't necessarily agree that the stress will be hugely detrimental to teenagers, but I just don't think that most younger people have the maturity to handle that type of work and responsibility.

Being on-call for SAR 24/7/365, I will work an average of less than one call a week. In a year of SAR, I have yet to provide medical care to a victim. However because we train continuously, have very high standards for CE and I have patient contact outside of SAR, I do feel confident that if necessary I would be able to provide a high standard of care for a victim until they could be handed off to a higher level of care.