Crew Members Under 18 / High School Age Members

I actually started out my EMS life at the age of 14 I was a junior member until age 17, which was the time I was voted into senior membership at my squad and also began my EMT-D course, being a junior member was one of the best experiences I ever had as a teen into adulthood, with my agency we could do vitals, assist on scene, assist with pt. assessments, and so on, I learned so much and it has helped me with where I am today, I think that junior squads should be allowed and I support them 100%, I am actually thinking of becoming an assisstant advisor for the junior squad at my agency.
 
Flight-LP, I disagree. Rid, I disagree.
I believe EMS can be a redeeming and rewarding profession. If I can spend 15 minutes in the back of the ambulance talking to an elderly women about her trip to america that brought her here and how it changed her life, and be friendly with her even though she probably has had no vistors in her nursing hime, that I am rewarded at the end of my shift. I may only work Inter facility transports, but its required here in ventura county california to have atleast 6 months WORKING on an ambulance as a basic to go to paramedic school.

Here in ventura county we have high school students exploring fire, EMS, and law enforcement. Children are the future and I believe we should involve them in what we do.
 
Obvious you have very little experience and still live in a fantasy world.. the world is not full of rainbows and the being able to hold the hand of granny that fell would be great if one had the time.

I too for the first few months believed in the same.

Sorry it is absurd and asinine to have children to perform in a medical profession. It is even shameful and disgusting to think that a community would even consider such, as well as a profession to even consider to place the youth in potential danger and risks and responsibility.

Sorry, I have been there. I started out in Posts at 14 and was an advisor for 5 years, and yes thought the same at one time. Although, at the time there were very little to no blood borne pathogens, rarely if any violent attacks were against medical staff, and single EMS units barely responded a call every 30 minutes to an hour and litigation against EMS never occurred; but things changed. Yes, we used to be able to have such active programs but times have changed, EMS has changed. We used to allow 16 year olds to drive emergencies as well until insurance corporations decided to stop insuring due to vehicle homicides and reckless behavior and malpractice coverage of a child performing medical procedures. Yes, it is hard to prove to a jury a child is responsible enough to perform procedures and the kid has not even paid taxes in their life. Sorry, people do care who performs medical care upon them.

As well, our business changed into a profession. It is no longer a "on the job training" rather someone should have the education prior to even sitting their gluteus behind the wheel.

C'mon this is a mute point. No one goes to the hospital to find a 14 or 16 year old starting their IV and assisting in by-pass surgery, nor standing around on the L & D floor to see if they want to do that some day. The reason is because of professional standards.

You want to be paid as a professional, treated as a professional, look like a professional... Guess what ? You have to act and be one, and having children assisting or even attempting to do your job is not being one.

This job requires mature thinking. It is called critical thinking skills (not to be confused with critical care), that is the ability to perform multiple and crisis intervention at the same time, prioritizing, sorting, and making sound decisions under rushed circumstances. It has been scientifically and professionally proven that those under the age of 21 usually have difficulties doing so. Unfair? Maybe, sorry that is life, we are not here in EMS to please those that are interested in a possible profession. Our main priority is to perform emergency and medical care to patients that request our services.

These services also include multiple tasks as well, and many never include direct patient care. The notification and recognition of abuse both adult and child, the intervention of a violent patient, being the first on a MCI and assisting in a LZ for a helicopter or making the determination of whom, where a patient is deemed to go for trauma, cardiac, violent psychiatric patients, and yes even telling granny that her loved one is dead.

You know that is a lot to ask a child to do, or see; and the first responding unit may have to do that. They do not have the option of being discreet of what the child maybe exposed to, or walk up on a junkie that is armed.

As a health care provider, are we really thinking in "their best interest" by doing so?

You are asking a lot for another EMT to be responsible for. I have enough hard time protecting myself and my partner on many calls, adding a youth that has no business being there is not fair nor productive. It does not take three people to take vital signs, nor four to run a code or provide trauma care to a patient. If you don't know more than to take vital signs; I don't need you in the back, your just taking up space.

Maybe, if you only respond to grannies falling and injuring their hip or the diabetic that forgot to eat or citizens only needing taxi service... that would be great but that is not what occurs in real life or in today's real EMS.

I am curious do you allow the youth to lift patients? What occurs if they injure their back or drops a patient? Does the service pay workman's comp on back injuries or pay malpractice? Does the parents understand that their potential assets can be removed from them as well? ...

Again, a lot for to ask for just because of curiosity and voyeurism.

R/r 911
 
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Guess I'll just say I disagree. In Israel we have lots and lots of volunteers under 18. The program is a huge success and is an excellent training program since everyone goes into the army at 18.
 
Sorry R/R I have to dissent here as well. I think every child is different so a blanket policy is probably absurd, but I think it is important to involve our children in as much of real life as possible. My six year old probably knows more about human anatomy and physiology than most EMT-basics do. He watches the political primaries with me and knows why we support the candidate that we do and why we don't support the other candidates.

He understands that life is not full of rainbows. He understands that there are bad people and good people. He understands that sometimes bad things happen and sufferage and pain are part of life and death. He watches the medical documentary shows with me and we discuss, usually at his behest, the different things we see. I discuss with him the pediatric calls I have when a little girl runs out under minivans and get head injuries. I usually tie that up with why mommy and daddy are always yelling at him when he runs through a parking lot. Actually, the things he has seen and the stories I have told him have been valuable life lessons for him.

What I think we have to be careful of is sheltering our children too much. If we keep them in a little make believe cocoon then they'll never experience life as it really is. I'm not saying cut them loose and let them be responsible for all the critical thinking. I don't think anyone here is advocating that. But I do think it is important for them to experience, if they want to, the things we do and learn the reasons behind how and why we treat them.

Someone said they're our future. And I wholeheartedly agree. There is nothing wrong with them observing and beginning the process of trying to put all the information together at an early age, if they're able to do that. Nothing stops a preceptor from making a kid stay in the truck if a call is so traumatic that it may mess them up. The truth is, those kinds of calls happen very infrequently. However, when they do happen...guess what? It's a fact of life and they need to understand that death, dying, suffering, and pain are all facts of life.

It's been my experience as a preceptor that most patients are very happy and willing to let students practice taking blood pressures and other non-invasive procedures on them. Most people understand that learning to do things is a necessary part of the process. Again, I am not advocating letting the kids make treatment decisions. I am, though, advocating getting the kids to think through the process and verbalize the thinking process.

I don't think this is as moot a point as you'd like it to be. I think you're in the minority here. I think it is possible to be a professional, maintain professionalism, and still teach our young people something all at the same time. For the sake of education, I am perfectly willing to accept the risk of adding a young person on my truck to observe provided he understands his/her limitations and can follow my direction.
 
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asclepius, I agree with you, all teens/young adults are different, I know many that are more mature and know more than some adults, I also know some that are the most immature thing you can imagine, but I believe if the right teens come along and are willing to learn and do the work in the fire/EMS field (without putting themselves in danger initially) then we should welcome them and teach them, and allow them to observe.
 
I don't see too big of a problem with a well managed and controlled explorer style program. My problem is when children move past the observer role and become either responsible for patient care directly or a replacement for a crew member (ex. Darien youtube video, post referenced in the first post). This has nothing to do with children gaining experience but with patient care. I do not think that children have developed the critical thinking skills needed for EMS yet.

Now, yes, as with everything, not all people are the same, but a line has to be drawn someplace. There are individuals who could probably drive just as well as any 20 year old at 14. Do they get to drive at 14 because they are ahead of the curve? Of course not. Do we let a 20 year old gamble in Vegas (Indian casinos for the win) because they show the maturity to know when to stop? How about drinking alcohol at 20? The answer to all of these is a resounding "No!" in large part because it is a line that needs to be made someplace, and that is the place where the line has been put.

Similarly, the line between childhood and adulthood in society is placed at 18. Are all individuals mature enough to be considered an adult at 18? No. Are some individuals younger than 18 more mature than a lot of adults? Of course, but laws and standards can not be drawn up based on individuals, but based on society. Society neither expects nor prepares children to be able to operate independently and think critically.
 
I believe were I disagree is the majority of EMS anymore is no longer a complacent environment, where it is the abnormal to be cursed, spit at or take several back to back calls.

Again, exposure to an occupation is great, but one does not have to be directly involved in care or even patient exposure. I believe it is unethical to have a person on the EMS unit sole purpose is to "watch". Does one really think by not having youth ride alongs, or allowing them on a unit is really going to not persuade them from going into EMS? Again, realistically they will still have another 4-5 years before they can enter professionally. So what have really we accomplished?

Many are not even counting Basic EMT as experience in many Paramedic services, does one really think sitting & watching or taking a few vital signs will count?

Let's educate and promote EMS as a profession, that professionals do. Promote that we are very discreet on whom and what is allowed into our profession. That our patient's privacy, care and treatment is only administered by qualified and educated personal, not just anyone that displays an interest.

Again professionalism and professional standards.

Do you allow family members or their friends ride and observe in the back? We do not for multiple reasons, yet we will allow one that is considered a child/minor or has no direct relationship or not even really licensed to care for the patient allowed to..?

Again, I am quite aware of the Explorer programs and their benefits, as well as disadvantages. It is NOT that I am against any Scouting Programs' being a former District Scout Exec. It is the system has changed, the responses has changed and the safety I question, as well as ethical and privacy dilemma.

We no longer have to recruit solely upon High School students to enter the EMS field. In fact, unless they want to enter at a Paramedic level, they will probably have to await three to four years post High School.. again, re-register twice before entering the age to be able to work in the environment professionally.

Again, we should promote EMS to high school and to all. Possibly, we should emphasize our profession more to the college age, since they will be able to enter the job market immediately and continue or change studies. This would have more advantages...

I am sure I will not pursade anyone I don't think I will have to. I believe we will see many changes due to privacy laws, possible injuries, litigations against both EMS and observers, and hopefully professional development.

R/r 911
 
Ridryder911 said:
Again, exposure to an occupation is great, but one does not have to be directly involved in care or even patient exposure. I believe it is unethical to have a person on the EMS unit sole purpose is to "watch". Does one really think by not having youth ride alongs, or allowing them on a unit is really going to not persuade them from going into EMS? Again, realistically they will still have another 4-5 years before they can enter professionally. So what have really we accomplished?
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Yes, I do. I did. If not EMS, then maybe inspired to be a physician. I know two of those personally and now one is our PMD.

Many are not even counting Basic EMT as experience in many Paramedic services, does one really think sitting & watching or taking a few vital signs will count?
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Again, I do. Clearly, the student not only gains an appreciation for what we do as a profession they get to experience the medical scenario in a less than perfect situation. It's one thing to do something in the nice over staffed hospital room...it's quite another to do it in the chaos of the scene.

Let's educate and promote EMS as a profession, that professionals do. Promote that we are very discreet on whom and what is allowed into our profession. That our patient's privacy, care and treatment is only administered by qualified and educated personal, not just anyone that displays an interest.
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I am all about professionalism. It's one of my biggest issues in the field. But I am also about education and awareness. EMS awareness is part of the role of an EMT.

Do you allow family members or their friends ride and observe in the back? We do not for multiple reasons, yet we will allow one that is considered a child/minor or has no direct relationship or not even really licensed to care for the patient allowed to..?
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Yep. Just a couple of weeks ago I had the daughter of the pastor who married my wife and I ride with me. She is graduating high school this year and is thinking about nursing. She wanted to ride along and I think it was a good idea for her.
 
Thoughts on High School EMT-B Cadet Programs

Hi,

After using the search feature I was not able to come across this topic so I wanted to adress it: what do people here think about high school cadet EMT-B programs where juniors and seniors can, after passing an EMT-B course, go out on calls as part of their local town's volly 911 EMS squad? So the age range we are dealing with is roughly 16-19. So what does everybody think about this? Are high school cadets too young, or can high school students in fact be mature enough to successfully respond to calls as professionals and give the same level of care as older EMT's?
 
Parking Da Bus said:
Hi,

After using the search feature I was not able to come across this topic so I wanted to adress it: what do people here think about high school cadet EMT-B programs where juniors and seniors can, after passing an EMT-B course, go out on calls as part of their local town's volly 911 EMS squad? So the age range we are dealing with is roughly 16-19. So what does everybody think about this? Are high school cadets too young, or can high school students in fact be mature enough to successfully respond to calls as professionals and give the same level of care as older EMT's?
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we have a youth corp. They go on calls as long as thye are 16 and have AHA CPR for the pro rescuer. At 18 they join the volley corp as a full member as they are legally considered an adult.

In NYS you must be 18 at the finish of an EMT class to take it.
 
JPINFV said:
I don't see too big of a problem with a well managed and controlled explorer style program. My problem is when children move past the observer role and become either responsible for patient care directly or a replacement for a crew member (ex. Darien youtube video, post referenced in the first post). This has nothing to do with children gaining experience but with patient care. I do not think that children have developed the critical thinking skills needed for EMS yet.

Now, yes, as with everything, not all people are the same, but a line has to be drawn someplace. There are individuals who could probably drive just as well as any 20 year old at 14. Do they get to drive at 14 because they are ahead of the curve? Of course not. Do we let a 20 year old gamble in Vegas (Indian casinos for the win) because they show the maturity to know when to stop? How about drinking alcohol at 20? The answer to all of these is a resounding "No!" in large part because it is a line that needs to be made someplace, and that is the place where the line has been put.

Similarly, the line between childhood and adulthood in society is placed at 18. Are all individuals mature enough to be considered an adult at 18? No. Are some individuals younger than 18 more mature than a lot of adults? Of course, but laws and standards can not be drawn up based on individuals, but based on society. Society neither expects nor prepares children to be able to operate independently and think critically.
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On the contrary, I think that "children" (actually 16-19 year olds) are just as equipped to give patient care as adult EMT-B's if the cadets and given the proper care and training. There was a few months ago a tradgedy in my community where a local high school student was accidentilly killed by members of his own wrestling team. Read the first few lines of the article:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-174509416.html

The cadets at the local high school responded and did as good a job as anybody. As you can see the police chief even commented on their good job.
 
Parking Da Bus said:
On the contrary, I think that "children" (actually 16-19 year olds) are just as equipped to give patient care as adult EMT-B's if the cadets and given the proper care and training. There was a few months ago a tradgedy in my community where a local high school student was accidentilly killed by members of his own wrestling team. Read the first few lines of the article:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-174509416.html

The cadets at the local high school responded and did as good a job as anybody. As you can see the police chief even commented on their good job.
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If children are so adapt at managing potentially dangerous situations, then why do parents have to sign permission slips and waivers for their children to go on a field trip that is, overall, much safer than any EMS run? Besides N=1 is hardly counter evidence to questions about at what age a person should be responsible for rendering medical care in an official capacity (EMS vs bystander first aid).

As to "children," yes, age <18 is a child in the eyes of society and the law. Yes, I wasn't happy to be lumped in the children/young adult age category as a 16 or 17 y/o. No, society is not fair to individuals in such rulings nor is anything going to change because a handful of people try to break the mold. 18 and 19 year olds are children, but I hope that 19 year olds are out of high school and 18 year olds are seniors in high school.
 
Monkeys could provide good basic care if properly trained and supervised. The problem lies that can they make critical decisions under distress? It is scientifically proven that majority of those under the age of 25 can not. The logic and interpretation center has not fully developed, the reason for insurance rates.

Now, let's review these kids (that is what they are) in ten years, let's see emotionally stable and how many might experience PTSD... Ask yourself, is this really for the best of our youth, when there is adults that might be better?

R/r 911
 
As a former Post Advisor I have seen the results 10-20 years later... a HORRIBLE idea. Kids are not mentally prepared for such, and should not be subject to such. We rant about "R" rated movies, and exposure but real life is okay?........

R/r 911
 
Ridryder911 said:
As a former Post Advisor I have seen the results 10-20 years later... a HORRIBLE idea. Kids are not mentally prepared for such, and should not be subject to such. We rant about "R" rated movies, and exposure but real life is okay?........

R/r 911
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You may rant about R rated movies but i feel kids are old enough to see the movies and old enough to ride. Most of the kids are in fact mentally prepared for this. Some of the 50 year olds i am no so sure about. Are teenagers magically mentally prepared at 18? at 21? at 26? when exactly are kids mature enough?

I have been riding since 16 years old. Those who were in youth corp at the same time I was have gone to become MD/DOs, a PA, several RNs, several professional medics which will include me after August, several cops and a biomedical engineer. And this is bad how?
 
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I'd rather my kids....

see some real life than some movie nonsense where people get shot and keep moving, where women are tortured for fun etc.

And I work in the film industry.

John E.
 
My agency has one youth auxiliary member he does not go on calls. He only helps clean the rig and learns how to use the equipment. In order to go on calls our members have to be 18 and older no exceptions. I can see having youth auxiliary members to learn about the equipment we use, but not to go on calls.
 
im 18 and im a working basic and a training paramedic...ive not had a problem....but im not a usual 18 yr old....and i see where your coming from
 
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