Crew Members Under 18 / High School Age Members

[Ridryder911]

You may rant about R rated movies but i feel kids are old enough to see the movies and old enough to ride. Most of the kids are in fact mentally prepared for this. Some of the 50 year olds i am no so sure about. Are teenagers magically mentally prepared at 18? at 21? at 26? when exactly are kids mature enough?

I have been riding since 16 years old. Those who were in youth corp at the same time I was have gone to become MD/DOs, a PA, several RNs, several professional medics which will include me after August, several cops and a biomedical engineer. And this is bad how?

I started working in an ER at the age of 14 and became a Paramedic at the age of 17, so I can speak of experience too. Sure, when I was a kid I thought the same. As I even stated I was a Post Advisor and alike you stated many became physicians and successful, but that does NOT exempt that PTSD is still possible and very real. PTSD may not even occur or have symptoms until 5 to 10 years later. Even those that became physicians still had some difficulties from calls that they responded upon as a youth. Not in relation to their practice or specialty. Kids should not be exposed to such events. Just because one goes into the medical field is irrelevant, it does not exempt them from the dangers.

Sorry, a film analogy is silly. There is definitely a mind set difference between seeing a movie with trauma, and knowing it is the real deal. Hearing screams of a child that has been boiled by there abusive parent or smell the steam of a eviscerated abdominal wound in the winter, to attempting to deal with the parents of a SIDS case, is not the same as slasher movie. Want your kids to deal with that? Let's look at real events and see the emotional and psychological trauma from MVA's, school shootings, etc. What age should parents not be concern with the environment and factors they are exposed to? Does a 15 year old really have the mind set and maturity/life experience to talk to that grandma that just lost her husband?

It is scientifically proven that the brain does not mature enough to make rationale decisions under distress until after the age of 25. Thus the reason most hospitals and accompanying insurance companies have age restrictions. This was not made half hazardously, rather again after tons of research. The only reason we still allow it is we have not became a profession yet. One does not have to volunteer or be exposed to have an interest in a profession or to recruit people into it. Thousands of other well respected, higher paying, does not allow kids to attempt to perform their job.

If your 50 year olds are acting immature on duty, then they should be fired. Period. That will solve that. No excuses allowed. There is a difference between having fun than being immature.

R/r 911

 

[Ridryder911]

see some real life than some movie nonsense where people get shot and keep moving, where women are tortured for fun etc.

And I work in the film industry.

John E.

I did not allow my child to watch such movies, and personally prefer not to watch them either.. Who needs it?

R/r 911

 

[FFPARAMEDIC08]

The truly sad part is the comment that you need something to go to school. This belief in entitlement in todays youth and an absolute lack of social ethics and integrity really chaps me. You need to be in school because it is socially accepted that KIDS get an education. You don't need any other reason. The way I see it is if kids want to help out in EMS, then they can babysit my kids while I work................

If you are under the age of 18, you have no business on an ambulance, if you are under 21, then you have no business driving one. Go to school, get an education, and then become a professional member of the EMS world. Stop trying to hurry your life along to participate in something "cool" with the "blinkies" and the "wooies"................

What an ignorant post. I will address this more when I wake up.

 

[LE-EMT]

I think this is a first. I completely and whole heartedly agree with Rid. That being said I will add my take on this. I tried to read the whole thing but well I have ADD and got bored.
One person said that LEO has a ride along program....Sure they do and yes in several cities its called and explorer program. BUT for them to even set foot in a Police cruiser their parents have to sign off on them. Ie acknowledging that their child is being placed in potentially harmful circumstances. These explorers or any other ride along/observer (16-200 yrs of age ) are not allowed out of the Patrol car at any time for any reason. They are not allowed to help with stops, aid in an arrest or anything of that nature. They are strictly observers. Any deviation of this is a violation of policy and just plain STUPID. So to compare this to a 16 yr old EMT is well there is no comparison. Two different Fields two different programs.
As for my opinion on Minors in an ems role. Well I have said in the past that I personally wouldn't feel comfortable having some high school kid administering Advil to me. I understand that there are many very mature kids out there but seriously. When I question my maturity level in dealing with certain things and I am 25 then think about the 15 year old. For instance ( I will leave a lot of things out such as procedural info as well as tactics and what not as they are not the point of the story ) I recently responded to a call ( LEO response ) for shots fired. Upon arriving on scene I realized that the house looked familiar. Not only did it just look familiar but I knew who the residence were. So immediately my adrenaline started to pump. Again to reiterate I am responding to shots fired at a personal friends house....upon entering I find blood every where, shell casings strewn about the floor bullet holes in the walls. Basically it looks like a war started in this house. after a bit of searching I find two bodies in the back bedroom Bloody and lifeless. I find two knives covered in blood both bodies mutilated almost beyond recognition. found the gun in the hand of the male subject. Basically the long and short of it is the two subjects (male and female) had gotten into a verbal argument witch progressed to physical then physical with edged weapons and then the gun was brought into play. Murder Suicide. These were my friends and I was the first on scene and I had to attempt to render aid.

I don't care how old or how mature you are at some point every one in the EMS/FIRE/LEO field will respond to a call that will just rock your world. Now being a 14,15,16,17,18 yr old and seeing a friend of yours in that situation and having to not only push back the emotions but then be of sound mind and body to attempt to preform life saving skills. I just don't see it. Not to mention and then walk out of the scene and go home and wash your friends blood off your hands your uniform and not have that do irrefutable mental damage.

I personally think that an observer program should start at the age of 18 get your certifications and learn all you can but you ride the bus as an observer for two years. Then you are assessed by your commanding officer as to your metal stability and your knowledge of what you have learned over the past two years. If you pass then you can work.

 

[CFRBryan347768]

In another thread (post 1, post 2 clarifying), a member here stated that, while comfortable with a patient alone, he felt even more comfortable because he had a "junior member" on the ambulance. A junior member was defined as a person under the age of 18. The purpose of this thread is not to debate that call, case, or poster though. There is also the case of the high school responders in Darien CT. (link goes to Youtube)

So, I propose the following question, "Should people under the age of 18 be considered anything more than an observer on an ambulance?"

As I am under 18 I believe this could go two ways. If you do not take the first step and just watch instead of being a leader, and do not get involved than no you should only be an observer. But if you can demonstrate that you can "hold your own" and than you could be a vital posession to the crew.

 

[CFRBryan347768]

The truly sad part is the comment that you need something to go to school. This belief in entitlement in todays youth and an absolute lack of social ethics and integrity really chaps me. You need to be in school because it is socially accepted that KIDS get an education. You don't need any other reason. The way I see it is if kids want to help out in EMS, then they can babysit my kids while I work................

If you are under the age of 18, you have no business on an ambulance, if you are under 21, then you have no business driving one. Go to school, get an education, and then become a professional member of the EMS world. Stop trying to hurry your life along to participate in something "cool" with the "blinkies" and the "wooies"................

So your pretty much telling me that I dont belong on an ambulance? Let me put it this way. If not for the ambulance what would have happened to the 97y/o that had a heart attack in front of his entire family with an EMS/FF rig with an ETA of 20 minutes? What would have happened to by 8 y/o brother had severe lacerations to his leg from a dirt bike accident? If i didnt know how to control bleeding you could bet all the money he would have bled out seeing that the closeest hospital was 25-30 minutes away. I could keep going on and on. I think you are very ignorant to the reality of this field.

 

[el Murpharino]

What would have happened to by 8 y/o brother had severe lacerations to his leg from a dirt bike accident? If i didnt know how to control bleeding you could bet all the money he would have bled out seeing that the closeest hospital was 25-30 minutes away. I could keep going on and on. I think you are very ignorant to the reality of this field.

I learned first aid when I was 12...most kids can learn the basics.

Let's change your scenario a bit...what would you do for the 8 year old brother if he was stung by a bee and had a bee allergy? Obviously there's not much you can do in that situation without the proper meds, but if you watched him die in front of you, you cannot say that this wouldn't scar you for a long time. It's easy to take one scenario and twist it to make people think you're ready for the harsh reality of the EMS field. It's possible you could be the exception...I mean there are kids who can handle this field. But we deal with mature matter on a daily basis...most kids can't handle it over the long term.

 

[LE-EMT]

What would happen if in your inexperience you made a mistake and your little brother died in your arms?????????? This is hard for anyone and everyone to deal with much less someone who hasn't mentally matured completely. I ask you this when was the last time you had some one die in your arms. through no fault of your own.... You just couldn't save this individual. How did you feel how are you going to feel another 10,20, 100 PTs down the line. Watching someone die takes its toll on you no matter how old or mature you are. The point is that children with their evolving minds should not be put through this potentially devastating mental trama.
You think you are mentally capable of dealing with all that EMS has to offer. Well then I say don't come crying to me when PTSD sets in and you are trying to self medicate your way past the dreams, the visions, and the general feeling of failure.

 

[Ridryder911]

So your pretty much telling me that I dont belong on an ambulance? Let me put it this way. If not for the ambulance what would have happened to the 97y/o that had a heart attack in front of his entire family with an EMS/FF rig with an ETA of 20 minutes? What would have happened to by 8 y/o brother had severe lacerations to his leg from a dirt bike accident? If i didnt know how to control bleeding you could bet all the money he would have bled out seeing that the closeest hospital was 25-30 minutes away. I could keep going on and on. I think you are very ignorant to the reality of this field.

Yes, I am telling you have NO business inside an ambulance. What would happen is what occurs everyday, the service would increase the number of rigs to decrease response time to prevent litigation instead of relying upon an MFR unit. Sorry, the analogies you provided can be treated by most common laymen, until EMS arrives. Really what are you really doing for an AMI? What diagnostics and treatment are you providing? What you are doing and providing is the same everyone in the U.S. should know and do ...provide first-aid. Something that used to be taught in every grade school and high school for use in common everyday emergencies.

Do we as a society have to depend upon kids to provide services? Why? Is the adults to busy to handle adult situations, or is it that kids perceive this as exciting and parents do not recognize and understand the potential dangers?

Now, as a former medical explorer and EMS explorer I do understand the percieved benefits, but as an adult that has seen the results that occurs 10 years later. I can assure you there are negative side effects as well. Something, most "kids" cannot even phantom.

Do we not read about PTSD from tragic events involving our young and in our military? It can occur to any age, but has been documented to have an increase in younger adults. Again, what event that might trigger is really unknown. I have seen & witnessed young adults that obtained PTSD from exposure to an event while as a Explorer. Again, the mind is not emotionally or psychologically developed enough.. argue all you want and attempt to justify; it is scientifically proven. Maybe, after a couple of million dollar law suits, communities would find it is much cheaper to hire adults.

Do we see pre-teen and teenagers working in a surgery suite, ICU, CCU, even in the ER? Why not? It is definitely more structured and a better controlled environment than in the field, but we acclaim it is okay? How asinine!

EMS is a division of the medical profession. It needs to be provided by well educated, stable, experienced individuals. Some of the education needed is life experience, and the reasoning skills obtained by rationale decision making techniques, that comes with experience of living.

R/r 911

 

[firecoins]

Some of the education needed is life experience, and the reasoning skills obtained by rationale decision making techniques, that comes with experience of living.
R/r 911

What experience of living? Anyone under 18 isn't allowed to see R rated movies much less real life.

The whole point of a youth corp/junior corp is to allow those under the 18 to OBSERVE and TO BE EDUCATED. Riding as an observer is an educational experienced that is not to be missed. Many of my fellow youth corp have gone to become MDs, DOs, medics, RNs, PAs, cops, firefighters, chiropractors and biomedical engineers and into many unrelated fields. None have PTSD.

 

[firecoins]

It is scientifically proven that the brain does not mature enough to make rationale decisions under distress until after the age of 25. R/r 911

1 Teenagers aren't making the decisions. Why this keeps them from observing, i dont' know.

2.
And we should continue to baby teenagers because?

3. I would love to see the study or studies that come to this conclusion.

 

[CFRBryan347768]

What experience of living? Anyone under 18 isn't allowed to see R rated movies much less real life.

The whole point of a youth corp/junior corp is to allow those under the 18 to OBSERVE and TO BE EDUCATED. Riding as an observer is an educational experienced that is not to be missed. Many of my fellow youth corp have gone to become MDs, DOs, medics, RNs, PAs, cops, firefighters, chiropractors and biomedical engineers and into many unrelated fields. None have PTSD.

Well SAID!!

 

[Desert Ranger]

Obvious you have very little experience and still live in a fantasy world.. the world is not full of rainbows and the being able to hold the hand of granny that fell would be great if one had the time.

I too for the first few months believed in the same.

Sorry it is absurd and asinine to have children to perform in a medical profession. It is even shameful and disgusting to think that a community would even consider such, as well as a profession to even consider to place the youth in potential danger and risks and responsibility.

Sorry, I have been there. I started out in Posts at 14 and was an advisor for 5 years, and yes thought the same at one time. Although, at the time there were very little to no blood borne pathogens, rarely if any violent attacks were against medical staff, and single EMS units barely responded a call every 30 minutes to an hour and litigation against EMS never occurred; but things changed. Yes, we used to be able to have such active programs but times have changed, EMS has changed. We used to allow 16 year olds to drive emergencies as well until insurance corporations decided to stop insuring due to vehicle homicides and reckless behavior and malpractice coverage of a child performing medical procedures. Yes, it is hard to prove to a jury a child is responsible enough to perform procedures and the kid has not even paid taxes in their life. Sorry, people do care who performs medical care upon them.

As well, our business changed into a profession. It is no longer a "on the job training" rather someone should have the education prior to even sitting their gluteus behind the wheel.

C'mon this is a mute point. No one goes to the hospital to find a 14 or 16 year old starting their IV and assisting in by-pass surgery, nor standing around on the L & D floor to see if they want to do that some day. The reason is because of professional standards.

You want to be paid as a professional, treated as a professional, look like a professional... Guess what ? You have to act and be one, and having children assisting or even attempting to do your job is not being one.

This job requires mature thinking. It is called critical thinking skills (not to be confused with critical care), that is the ability to perform multiple and crisis intervention at the same time, prioritizing, sorting, and making sound decisions under rushed circumstances. It has been scientifically and professionally proven that those under the age of 21 usually have difficulties doing so. Unfair? Maybe, sorry that is life, we are not here in EMS to please those that are interested in a possible profession. Our main priority is to perform emergency and medical care to patients that request our services.

These services also include multiple tasks as well, and many never include direct patient care. The notification and recognition of abuse both adult and child, the intervention of a violent patient, being the first on a MCI and assisting in a LZ for a helicopter or making the determination of whom, where a patient is deemed to go for trauma, cardiac, violent psychiatric patients, and yes even telling granny that her loved one is dead.

You know that is a lot to ask a child to do, or see; and the first responding unit may have to do that. They do not have the option of being discreet of what the child maybe exposed to, or walk up on a junkie that is armed.

As a health care provider, are we really thinking in "their best interest" by doing so?

You are asking a lot for another EMT to be responsible for. I have enough hard time protecting myself and my partner on many calls, adding a youth that has no business being there is not fair nor productive. It does not take three people to take vital signs, nor four to run a code or provide trauma care to a patient. If you don't know more than to take vital signs; I don't need you in the back, your just taking up space.

Maybe, if you only respond to grannies falling and injuring their hip or the diabetic that forgot to eat or citizens only needing taxi service... that would be great but that is not what occurs in real life or in today's real EMS.

I am curious do you allow the youth to lift patients? What occurs if they injure their back or drops a patient? Does the service pay workman's comp on back injuries or pay malpractice? Does the parents understand that their potential assets can be removed from them as well? ...

Again, a lot for to ask for just because of curiosity and voyeurism.

R/r 911

I agree with Rid on this one. I have some serious concerns about letting legal minors provide emergency care. Not that they can't handle stuff they will see on EMS calls, but that they shouldn't have to.

The teenage brain is still developing. The frontal lobe is undergoing massive reorganization at that time of life. While an emergency that is thrust upon them at that time will call up reserves they didn't know they had, there is no reason to subject them to it.

Agree, totally

 

[firecoins]

Do we as a society have to depend upon kids to provide services? Why? Is the adults to busy to handle adult situations, or is it that kids perceive this as exciting and parents do not recognize and understand the potential dangers?

Teenagers don't provider service.. CFRBrian doesn't provide service noir does his ambulance corp rely on him to do. I know his corp. He vollies down the block from me. He might be an MFR but he is an observer who knows how to backboard. Lets not get carried away.

Do we not read about PTSD from tragic events involving our young and in our military?It can occur to any age, but has been documented to have an increase in younger adults. Again, what event that might trigger is really unknown.

The trigger in unknown? And it can happen at any age? So Teenagers can not observe EMS calls? Hmmm

I have seen & witnessed young adults that obtained PTSD from exposure to an event while as a Explorer. Again, the mind is not emotionally or psychologically developed enough..argue all you want and attempt to justify; it is scientifically proven. [

What is scientifically proven? Yes teenagers are not fully emotionally developed. Yet you assert PTSD happan at any age with unknown triggers. So we should lock teenagers up so that they don't become emotionally injure until what age? And show me the lawsuits of for teenagers suffering PTSD while observing on anambulance. This is the wrong approach.

Do we see pre-teen and teenagers working in a surgery suite, ICU, CCU, even in the ER? Why not? It is definitely more structured and a better controlled environment than in the field, but we acclaim it is okay? How asinine!

Again you have the wrong premise. We are not arguing for Doogiehouse. And yes high school and pre med college kids vollie in the hospital. Nursing & medic students under 21 are found in the hospital all the time. This includes the ER for all of them seeing more than what I get on my ambulance.

EMS is a division of the medical profession. It needs to be provided by well educated, stable, experienced individuals

Depression amoung MDs is increasingly becoming recognized. They aren't teenagers. They hide their depression and addictions because their lively hood is at stake. MDs have a highly succesful suicide rate because of the medical know how. I guess we shouldn't let MDs ride in the ambulance either

R/r 911[/QUOTE]

 

[firecoins]

Maybe, if you only respond to grannies falling and injuring their hip or the diabetic that forgot to eat or citizens only needing taxi service... that would be great but that is not what occurs in real life or in today's real EMS.

I am sorry but it scientifically proven that this country is aging. EMS calls reflect this. You will be picking up grannies falling quite often. I don't know where you ride Rid but yeah that contains 90% of EMS calls. "Real Life" and "Real EMS" isn't just ejections.

I would love to see your numbers RId on many "real life" and "real EMS" calls you take.

19 year old mayor.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h_XqeK0mwVYALet1vAn8WLLifYFgD90L62IG0

 

[CFRBryan347768]

Teenagers don't provider service.. CFRBrian doesn't provide service noir does his ambulance corp rely on him to do. I know his corp. He vollies down the block from me. He might be an MFR but he is an observer who knows how to backboard. Lets not get carried away.

Hmm...its a little more than that but im going to go disappear on this thread lol.

 

[CFRBryan347768]

Hmm...its a little more than that but im going to go disappear on this thread lol.

Just an add on this is what we have to do to pass the class
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/ems/pdf/cfrpse08-06.pdf

 

[Jeremy89]

So I guess I'm confused as to what you guys (Rid, Flight-LP...) are saying. Maybe some of you have had bad experience with younger EMT's?? That's fine, but you can't stereotype everyone by their age. Heck, there are 30 year olds that can't make decisions under pressure. Age is just a number and by no means defines how competent a person is. It can provide a guideline for such, but it must be taken on a situation specific basis. Yes, I agree there are many people in EMS that shouldn't be, but the fact is that they are there because they passed a test and someone felt they were qualified to provide care for others.

I just can't understand why age is such a big issue.... Please feel free to elaborate, but play nice...

 

[CFRBryan347768]

So I guess I'm confused as to what you guys (Rid, Flight-LP...) are saying. Maybe some of you have had bad experience with younger EMT's?? That's fine, but you can't stereotype everyone by their age. Heck, there are 30 year olds that can't make decisions under pressure. Age is just a number and by no means defines how competent a person is. It can provide a guideline for such, but it must be taken on a situation specific basis. Yes, I agree there are many people in EMS that shouldn't be, but the fact is that they are there because they passed a test and someone felt they were qualified to provide care for others.

I just can't understand why age is such a big issue.... Please feel free to elaborate, but play nice...

Well from what I understood, it is believed that age represents maturity, which isn't necessarily true, although most of the time I can agree that most people under the age of 22 are very immature. But that shouldnt mean you close it down for everybody. I my self at the age of 13 had to grow up very quick and I believe I have the maturity of some one well into their 30's but thats not pertinent. Also I gathered from this thread that because certain parts of your brain aren't developed it can leave you with post traumatic stress more often than those that are fully developed. I think any one can suffer from that at any age.

 

[Jeremy89]

Well from what I understood, it is believed that age represents maturity, which isn't necessarily true, although most of the time I can agree that most people under the age of 22 are very immature. But that shouldnt mean you close it down for everybody. I my self at the age of 13 had to grow up very quick and I believe I have the maturity of some one well into their 30's but thats not pertinent. Also I gathered from this thread that because certain parts of your brain aren't developed it can leave you with post traumatic stress more often than those that are fully developed. I think any one can suffer from that at any age.

Very true. My mom's friend hit his forehead on an altar when he was 13. Even today at 41 he seems childish at times- like he stopped developing or something.