Avive 4 minute city

EpiEMS

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Pretty snazzy! Love the idea of community responders. Reminds me of Hatzolah.
 

Aprz

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I think it's a cool idea, but I am concerned that these good Samaritans being dispatched might get in the way and think they have equal say in patient care. I think if the fire department or ambulance will be quicker or equal response time as the good Samaritan, the good Samaritan should not be dispatched. I know a crew that was running a cardiac arrest, a good Samaritan showed up with an AED, and there was a verbal altercation because the good Samaritan wanted the AED to be used instead of the LifePak.
 
OP
NomadicMedic

NomadicMedic

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I don’t think the potential of a Good Samaritan arguing with EMS is a real reason for not starting a robust and GPS guided community CPR and AED program. Our plan is to work with Avive and distribute 200 AEDs in a pilot city and study the use and survival outcomes. Education is key.

A related issue that’s worth considering: I was in the building next to an actual arrest that triggered a pulse point alert in Savannah and I was denied entry into the business, even though I identified myself as an off duty paramedic. There was no EMS or law enforcement on scene. So, I turned around and left. If you don’t support these efforts with education, they are destined to fail.
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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I think it's a cool idea, but I am concerned that these good Samaritans being dispatched might get in the way and think they have equal say in patient care. I think if the fire department or ambulance will be quicker or equal response time as the good Samaritan, the good Samaritan should not be dispatched. I know a crew that was running a cardiac arrest, a good Samaritan showed up with an AED, and there was a verbal altercation because the good Samaritan wanted the AED to be used instead of the LifePak.
I do agree. This can be as bad as volunteer/off duty responders showing up to assist, in inappropriate attire (yes, I've seen it happen), or in various states of competancy; the only saving grace is they will be showing up with an AED, which the patient didn't have access to previously. Good in theory, but I'm not sure how it would work out in practice. I could never understand why a good samaritan would argue with AHJ personnel (what's supposed to happen is EMS shows us, and then everyone else takes directions from the crew, including directions to leave), and if a citizen wants to argue, than LEO should escort them away.

the cynic in me wants to say what happens if a cardiac arrest occurs, and one of the responding citizens has low moral standards, and decides to pocket the gold watch on the dresser while the family is distraught and EMS is doing CPR... who gets blamed?
A related issue that’s worth considering: I was in the building next to an actual arrest that triggered a pulse point alert in Savannah and I was denied entry into the business, even though I identified myself as an off duty paramedic. There was no EMS or law enforcement on scene. So, I turned around and left. If you don’t support these efforts with education, they are destined to fail.
Maybe they thought you were a corporate thief? Maybe they already had people doing CPR (if security is turning you away, I am assuming they are already handling the emergency)?

There are a lot of reasons why a business would not want a bunch of random people in their office. From a penetration testing perspective, that might be a great way to get into an office: have a 5 person team, call 911, trigger a pulse point alert, and have all 5 people show up, and then have one wander off and gain access to where they shouldn't. Could it happen? idk, but if you hear about it on https://darknetdiaries.com/....

I do think that deploying AEDs to major office buildings or areas of high population concentration, and developing a formal plan to cardiac arrest emergencies, including training and assigned responders, is a great idea.
 

Aprz

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I don’t think the potential of a Good Samaritan arguing with EMS is a real reason for not starting a robust and GPS guided community CPR and AED program. Our plan is to work with Avive and distribute 200 AEDs in a pilot city and study the use and survival outcomes. Education is key.
If it is dispatch clicking a button to alert the good Samaritan, I think the dispatcher should assess if it is worth dispatching the good Samaritan of not. Implement the project still, but only utilized it if it's actually going to help, like if EMS/fire will be significantly slower than the good Samaritan.
 

ffemt8978

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Are these people still legally considered good samaritans if being dispatched to the call by 911 operator?
 

EpiEMS

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Wouldn’t it be easy enough to have validated lay responders? Or of course validated professionals responding in an off duty capacity?
 
OP
NomadicMedic

NomadicMedic

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I don’t know any of the answers to these questions. However, I still believe lay responders with an AED is an excellent idea. I’ll let you know how the project works out when it’s up and running. I’m sure they’ll publish after the program starts. In the interest of full disclosure, I’m involved only on the periphery at present.
 
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NomadicMedic

NomadicMedic

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Are these people still legally considered good samaritans if being dispatched to the call by 911 operator?

The idea is they have access to an AED that alerts them to an emergency near by. Same as a person shouting for help. Yes, still a Good Samaritan with no duty to act.
 
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NomadicMedic

NomadicMedic

Pot or Kettle? Unsure.
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I do agree. This can be as bad as volunteer/off duty responders showing up to assist, in inappropriate attire (yes, I've seen it happen), or in various states of competancy; the only saving grace is they will be showing up with an AED, which the patient didn't have access to previously. Good in theory, but I'm not sure how it would work out in practice. I could never understand why a good samaritan would argue with AHJ personnel (what's supposed to happen is EMS shows us, and then everyone else takes directions from the crew, including directions to leave), and if a citizen wants to argue, than LEO should escort them away.

the cynic in me wants to say what happens if a cardiac arrest occurs, and one of the responding citizens has low moral standards, and decides to pocket the gold watch on the dresser while the family is distraught and EMS is doing CPR... who gets blamed?

Maybe they thought you were a corporate thief? Maybe they already had people doing CPR (if security is turning you away, I am assuming they are already handling the emergency)?

There are a lot of reasons why a business would not want a bunch of random people in their office. From a penetration testing perspective, that might be a great way to get into an office: have a 5 person team, call 911, trigger a pulse point alert, and have all 5 people show up, and then have one wander off and gain access to where they shouldn't. Could it happen? idk, but if you hear about it on https://darknetdiaries.com/....

I do think that deploying AEDs to major office buildings or areas of high population concentration, and developing a formal plan to cardiac arrest emergencies, including training and assigned responders, is a great idea.

This was a personal training gym, no AED. No bystander CPR until police arrived. Person died.
 

ffemt8978

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The idea is they have access to an AED that alerts them to an emergency near by. Same as a person shouting for help. Yes, still a Good Samaritan with no duty to act.
I was thinking more along the lines of one of these good samaritans getting into an accident (their fault or thr other persons fault) while responding. You could bet good money that the 911 center and city/county will be named as defendents in the lawsuit.
 

ffemt8978

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The idea is they have access to an AED that alerts them to an emergency near by. Same as a person shouting for help. Yes, still a Good Samaritan with no duty to act.
The difference being that they are responding because of an action by the 911 center, and not somebody shouting for help. This could be a fairly major distinction liability-wise
 

StCEMT

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I think its a pretty ****ing awesome idea. I was also trained at an agency that was really big on teaching the public bystander CPR and being an early adopter of the pit crew, continual style rather than the AHA way....so...I may be biased from my upbringing.

Yes, in theory there can and almost certainly will be problems. But I don't think any of us are timid enough to let someone run up with an AED if we already are doing our thing and telling us what to do. Can it be used for entry in to places? Sure, I suppose. I know 100% that I won't be getting into the Federal Reserve building with this off duty, even on duty the security is super tight. But to a nearby restaurant? A neighbors house? Some random local business? I don't see the occasional problem in the common places outnumbering the possible good scenarios if this could be implemented close to the standard of the idea. I wish I got more bystander CPR and AED use and if this helps bump that up, I am all for it.
 

CCCSD

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The idea is they have access to an AED that alerts them to an emergency near by. Same as a person shouting for help. Yes, still a Good Samaritan with no duty to act.
Not if they are “dispatched”. Then they are an agent if the Govt.
 

PotatoMedic

Has no idea what I'm doing.
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The difference being that they are responding because of an action by the 911 center, and not somebody shouting for help. This could be a fairly major distinction liability-wise
It's not really any different than pulse point. Just seems the range is larger.
 

ffemt8978

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It's not really any different than pulse point. Just seems the range is larger.
And those questions have yet to be answered with Pulse Point either.
 

FiremanMike

EMS Coordinator
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Interesting idea.. Idealistically a phenomenal idea, but I'd ask this - how has pulse point worked out?

I did read the post by @NomadicMedic where he responded to a pulse point alert, and I'd be curious to know often that actually happens across the nation. In my neck of the woods, pulse point is used for one of two reasons, either to get an early jump on a working fire in the big city, or to find out if the mutual aid medic we're responding for is ducking the run by staying tied up at the hospital for the last two hours.

If nationwide pulse point activations are actually happening and CPR is being initiated based on people who were alerted by pulse point, then I'd say this would be the next evolution of that and we should pour fountains of money into it.

On the other hand, if pulse point CPR initiations are as low as I assume they are, then I think this project is likely a large waste of money that will produce identical results to pulse point.
 

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