Avive 4 minute city

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NomadicMedic

NomadicMedic

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Honestly, I think it’s a great idea. We all know the only thing that makes a real difference in SCA survival is bystander CPR and early defibrillator use. If we can make that happen more, then the project is a success.

if you don’t like it, or think it’s a bad idea, reach out to Avive and share your issues. They can probably address them better than I can.
 

StCEMT

Forum Deputy Chief
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Interesting idea.. Idealistically a phenomenal idea, but I'd ask this - how has pulse point worked out?

I did read the post by @NomadicMedic where he responded to a pulse point alert, and I'd be curious to know often that actually happens across the nation. In my neck of the woods, pulse point is used for one of two reasons, either to get an early jump on a working fire in the big city, or to find out if the mutual aid medic we're responding for is ducking the run by staying tied up at the hospital for the last two hours.

If nationwide pulse point activations are actually happening and CPR is being initiated based on people who were alerted by pulse point, then I'd say this would be the next evolution of that and we should pour fountains of money into it.

On the other hand, if pulse point CPR initiations are as low as I assume they are, then I think this project is likely a large waste of money that will produce identical results to pulse point.
I know a doctor out here that got one while off of work. Actually went and did CPR and to good benefit of the pt if I recall the story right. I've gotten one while off of work, but I was standing in the parking lot of my old apartment talking to one of my Lt's who sits there often. Kinda useless for me to have tried when I wouldn't have beaten an ALS response.

But if this is integrated into departments holding public CPR training, how much of a waste is it? At that point, it's just a minor extension to something we already frequently do.
 

GMCmedic

Forum Deputy Chief
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We’ll let the courts sort that out.
What is there to sort out? The States write their Good Samaritan laws as they see fit.

As an Example, Indiana specifically addresses this.

b) Except as provided in subsection (c), a person who comes upon the scene of an emergency or accident, complies with IC 9-26-1-1.5, or is summoned to the scene of an emergency or accident and, in good faith, gratuitously renders emergency care at the scene of the emergency or accident is immune from civil liability for any personal injury that results from:

(1) any act or omission by the person in rendering the emergency care;  or

(2) any act or failure to act to provide or arrange for further medical treatment or care for the injured person; except for acts or omissions amounting to gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct
 

ffemt8978

Forum Vice-Principal
Community Leader
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What is there to sort out? The States write their Good Samaritan laws as they see fit.

As an Example, Indiana specifically addresses this.

b) Except as provided in subsection (c), a person who comes upon the scene of an emergency or accident, complies with IC 9-26-1-1.5, or is summoned to the scene of an emergency or accident and, in good faith, gratuitously renders emergency care at the scene of the emergency or accident is immune from civil liability for any personal injury that results from:

(1) any act or omission by the person in rendering the emergency care;  or

(2) any act or failure to act to provide or arrange for further medical treatment or care for the injured person; except for acts or omissions amounting to gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct
Interesting that they included the word 'summoned' in their definition.
 

FiremanMike

EMS Coordinator
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Honestly, I think it’s a great idea. We all know the only thing that makes a real difference in SCA survival is bystander CPR and early defibrillator use. If we can make that happen more, then the project is a success.

if you don’t like it, or think it’s a bad idea, reach out to Avive and share your issues. They can probably address them better than I can.
It’s not that I don’t like it, but this is an immense investment of time and money. I think its fair to compare it to a similar system that already exists, and I feel the successes and/or failures of pulse point could predict the efficacy of this program.

Simply stated, if we can’t consistently get people to go do CPR, why do we think they would consistently grab an AED and go to work?
 
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PotatoMedic

Has no idea what I'm doing.
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PotatoMedic

Has no idea what I'm doing.
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Also for giggles I looked up title 34 of the Indiana code, it does not have a specific definition for summoned. So one could easily argue that being dispatched could be considered being summoned.
 

StCEMT

Forum Deputy Chief
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Simply stated, if we can’t consistently get people to go do CPR, why do we think they would consistently grab an AED and go to work?
How much of this could we change with public education though? How many of the people not doing CPR just dont know what to do and panic/freeze as a result?
 

FiremanMike

EMS Coordinator
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How much of this could we change with public education though? How many of the people not doing CPR just dont know what to do and panic/freeze as a result?
You’re definitely right, and I think we may be better focusing our money on public education about early CPR than adding another expensive and potentially underutilized tool to the kit.

AEDs are not cheap, and adding a new infrastructure to our dispatch centers is not only expensive, but cumbersome..0
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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AEDs are not cheap, and adding a new infrastructure to our dispatch centers is not only expensive, but cumbersome..0
Agreed, AEDs are not cheap.... but what new infrastructure are you referring to? I'm thinking of maybe an API or plugin that can be integrated into your existing CAD system. relatively cheap, not cumbersome at all.
 

FiremanMike

EMS Coordinator
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Agreed, AEDs are not cheap.... but what new infrastructure are you referring to? I'm thinking of maybe an API or plugin that can be integrated into your existing CAD system. relatively cheap, not cumbersome at all.
The cumbersome/expensive part is CAD integration. Generally, those little add-ons have to become development tasks and public safety software companies love to gouge those numbers..
 

Aprz

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Hopefully I wasn't too negative about this project. I think it is overall a good thing, I just had the concern. I was also excited to see Los Gatos, CA in the ad, haha. I worked in Santa Clara County for 5 years and Los Gatos was one of the cities we responded to. I was pretty much doing this the whole ad.

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I think a lot of these things will be under utilized. I think that is typical for most prehospital stuff.
 

StCEMT

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You’re definitely right, and I think we may be better focusing our money on public education about early CPR than adding another expensive and potentially underutilized tool to the kit.

AEDs are not cheap, and adding a new infrastructure to our dispatch centers is not only expensive, but cumbersome..0
No, but I dont think we should do only public education. AED use is still a core part of teaching bystander CPR. This is just an extension of that. It can't be successful without the foundation, but I can see it doing well with proper preparation or failing if it's poorly implemented.
 

Tigger

Dodges Pucks
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I think I am not a lawyer and have zero desire to discuss what the liability is here. One would think PulsePoint and Avive probably considered this as it's most all of their business model.

There is huge potential here. Just got off a call that include updates to the county PP rollout and found out that at least for us (county of 730k), there is a not much fee for implementing an AED registry and integration of that to the CAD. A full buildout of PP includes a relatively high (no value given yet), yearly fee to alert participants.

They are excited about the AED aspect, but are struggling to come up with a cohesive plan to acquire info on privately owned AEDs. While the information needed is not super complex, it was more than I was expecting.
 
OP
NomadicMedic

NomadicMedic

Pot or Kettle? Unsure.
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Also, the avive AED has a video screen that instructs the user on CPR. I think this is potentially more valuable than pulse point. These devices will be placed in businesses and public locations where an AED should be anyway. If it alerts and someone grabs it to do CPR and deliver a shock to someone who needs it… well that’s a win.

And from what I understand, the pilot project in my area was fully funded as soon as the local health system saw the presentation. It’s game changing stuff. Embrace crowd sourcing technology. It’s coming, like it or not.
 

HardKnocks

Forum Probie
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How do you determine if the AED Possessor is available to respond, (i.e. the AED is at Home and the Owner is away from home)? Will AHA Certs be required to insure proficiency with AED and CPR? We all go through re-certs and retraining.

I believe to make this work the Volunteers are going to have to put themselves "Available" with Dispatch.

If not, Dispatch will be put in a resource management problem/situation; where response delays result, (while Dispatch trying to get a Volunteer Response and Volunteers are away from their Equipment or Unavailable to respond).

Its going to take a serious commitment by Volunteers to go "Available" and "Not-Available" with some type of 911 dispatch system.

Thoughts?
 

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