WTF cop?

if someone is not under arrest I don't think PD has the authority to search them. Take your typical EtOH/public disturbance call. Cops show up, someone is drunk but not braking the law, medics show up to take him to the hospital. Get in the truck and he has a pocket knife.

A- he probably is not out to stab anyone
B- cops can't go around searching everyone for weapons without probable cause.
 
Our safety is the probable cause in those cases.
 
beano said:
if someone is not under arrest I don't think PD has the authority to search them. Take your typical EtOH/public disturbance call. Cops show up, someone is drunk but not braking the law, medics show up to take him to the hospital. Get in the truck and he has a pocket knife.

A- he probably is not out to stab anyone
B- cops can't go around searching everyone for weapons without probable cause.
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Aidey said:
Our safety is the probable cause in those cases.
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Not necessarily. Just because we want the PD to search someone does not mean they have the legal authority to do so.
 
ffemt8978 said:
Not necessarily. Just because we want the PD to search someone does not mean they have the legal authority to do so.
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If the patient wants treatment from me, they do. :lol: :lol: my size and gender give off the impression of a "soft-target" as they call it in the Army.

I'll take pocket knives, pens, and car keys from a patient if I please. "Let me bag up these personal belongings so they don't get lost or poke you in the hip. Mmmmkay??"
 
Household6 said:
If the patient wants treatment from me, they do. :lol: :lol: my size and gender give off the impression of a "soft-target" as they call it in the Army.

I'll take pocket knives, pens, and car keys from a patient if I please. "Let me bag up these personal belongings so they don't get lost or poke you in the hip. Mmmmkay??"
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You searching your patient is different, legally, than the police doing it.

Remember, anything you remove from a patient you now become liable for if it turns up missing. They would even be able to claim something they didn't have turned up missing and you could be liable for it unless you document the crap out of what you removed from them and why.
 
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Call me naive or what have you, but generally if the patient called 911, consented to treatment, and allowed us to get him in the back of the ambulance, I guess I am really not that worried about the patient suddenly freaking out and stabbing me with car keys.

I stay alert to changes in the patients attitude, but I do not operate under the auspices that every patient is out to hurt me.
 
Tigger said:
Call me naive or what have you, but generally if the patient called 911, consented to treatment, and allowed us to get him in the back of the ambulance, I guess I am really not that worried about the patient suddenly freaking out and stabbing me with car keys.

I stay alert to changes in the patients attitude, but I do not operate under the auspices that every patient is out to hurt me.
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Agreed. Best thing is to have situational awareness.
 
Household6 said:
If the patient wants treatment from me, they do. :lol: :lol: my size and gender give off the impression of a "soft-target" as they call it in the Army.

I'll take pocket knives, pens, and car keys from a patient if I please. "Let me bag up these personal belongings so they don't get lost or poke you in the hip. Mmmmkay??"
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What if I said no?
 
Tigger said:
What if I said no?
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I was going to ask the same thing.
I don't think any supervisors would be too happy to hear that an emergent transport was delayed, because your employee delayed care by trying to confiscate the patient's car keys.

Just my 2 cents. I'd still like to read an answer.
 
9D4 said:
I was going to ask the same thing.
I don't think any supervisors would be too happy to hear that an emergent transport was delayed, because your employee delayed care by trying to confiscate the patient's car keys.

Just my 2 cents. I'd still like to read an answer.
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Medics told me a story where they responded to a house for unknown injury. Found a person sitting in a chair who slit their wrists with keys. Pt said I'm no going to the hospital get away from me. as they were loosing a lot of blood. Pd was called but the medics just waited for the pt to bleed out and pass out then scooped and ran before pd arrived.

Long story short. I will happily delay transport till it is safe to do so.
 
FireWA1 said:
Medics told me a story where they responded to a house for unknown injury. Found a person sitting in a chair who slit their wrists with keys. Pt said I'm no going to the hospital get away from me. as they were loosing a lot of blood. Pd was called but the medics just waited for the pt to bleed out and pass out then scooped and ran before pd arrived.

Long story short. I will happily delay transport till it is safe to do so.
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With all respect, one piece of anecdotal evidence takes away nothing from what I've said. There is simply no reason to take away a pt's car keys, pens, whatever else "because I please". Totally different story than for scene safety.
 
9D4 said:
With all respect, one piece of anecdotal evidence takes away nothing from what I've said. There is simply no reason to take away a pt's car keys, pens, whatever else "because I please". Totally different story than for scene safety.
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The point I was trying to make is that if someone I feel has access to a weapon of any kind (keys, pencil, anything, etc.) and I feel that they could use it against me, I will try to remove it from the situation or have pd/so come and try to remove it. I think we have made it clear on this forum. Our safety then our partners. then the pt's. And honestly it is hard to determine that from the post. it is all about how I feel the interactions are going.

Just read the headlines today... a paramedic was beaten by a drunk patient.
 
beano said:
if someone is not under arrest I don't think PD has the authority to search them. Take your typical EtOH/public disturbance call. Cops show up, someone is drunk but not braking the law, medics show up to take him to the hospital. Get in the truck and he has a pocket knife.

A- he probably is not out to stab anyone
B- cops can't go around searching everyone for weapons without probable cause.
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Intoxicated in public is an arrestable charge here. Usually doesn't result in a citation just a sleep off session but if you're a prick you'll catch a misdemeanor.

Also, disturbing the peace is also an arrestable offense as well. Causing a scene to the point of having EMS, Fire and PD can easily be turned into a DTP cite if you aren't cooperative. With that said if someone else calls it in and you're not making a scene, are oriented, not grossly intoxicated and you refuse my service I'll gladly let you off. I'll ask you to sign something once and if you keep walking or refuse I won't big you about it.

If you make me uncomfortable enough or give me a reason to search you and you refuse to allow me to you're not coming inside my ambulance, I'm getting in it with my partner and leaving and requesting PD. My safety is the most important. I generally put my partner above myself but either way WE are the priority.

I don't work in the most dangerous area in the U.S. But we have plenty of violence, hell a 12 year old started popping off rounds outside a school yesterday and the night before that there was a shooting at one of the hospitals...

I'll ask PD away from the patient then ask the patient and lead with something like "I'm not trained to do it but he/she is and I'd appreciate it if you let them just pat you down real quick :)". Pretty rare to have someone refuse that.
 
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Robb said:
If you make me uncomfortable enough or give me a reason to search you and you refuse to allow me to you're not coming inside my ambulance, I'm getting in it with my partner
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Yup, exactly.. If I'm uneasy and I'm uncomfortable, it's not happening.
 
Household6 said:
Yup, exactly.. If I'm uneasy and I'm uncomfortable, it's not happening.
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That's not really answering the question. You said you'd take keys and pocket knives as you please. Do the presence of those items make you uncomfortable on all patients?

Yeah, if the patient has slit their wrists with car keys or threatened someone with a knife, I think it goes without saying that I'm probably not going to transfer them with those items.

But if someone just has a knife or keys on them, do you take them automatically because they could maybe become a threat?
 
Tigger said:
That's not really answering the question. You said you'd take keys and pocket knives as you please. Do the presence of those items make you uncomfortable on all patients?
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Of course not, that's silly.. I figured I've been around here long enough for yous to know I'm not a complete idiot.. Right? Srsly, bro, am I coming across as a total nit-wit?

In fact, I almost always try to make sure that all my alert female patients have their purses right on the cot.. Because I'm a girl, and I know what it's like when you don't have your purse. Besides, sometimes meds are kept in there, ID, cell phone with ICE/NOK numbers..

But, I transported a trauma patient a couple months ago, he had a buck knife on his belt.. Most people up here do, their hunters, farmers, country folk.. Even though he was unresp, and flopping around like a Cabbage Patch Doll, that knife came off right away.. I didn't think the ER staff would have appreciated it..
 
Household6 said:
Of course not, that's silly.. I figured I've been around here long enough for yous to know I'm not a complete idiot.. Right? Srsly, bro, am I coming across as a total nit-wit?

In fact, I almost always try to make sure that all my alert female patients have their purses right on the cot.. Because I'm a girl, and I know what it's like when you don't have your purse. Besides, sometimes meds are kept in there, ID, cell phone with ICE/NOK numbers..

But, I transported a trauma patient a couple months ago, he had a buck knife on his belt.. Most people up here do, their hunters, farmers, country folk.. Even though he was unresp, and flopping around like a Cabbage Patch Doll, that knife came off right away.. I didn't think the ER staff would have appreciated it..
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All I can do is read what you wrote...

Glad it isn't as originally written. I don't know what it is, but there are more than a few EMS providers I know that seem to operate with much higher perceived danger levels than I do or the coworkers I respect. Yes assaults on providers happen, and occasionally we are targeted in random violent crimes. But for the most part, our patients at least grudgingly accept that we are here to at least try to help them.

I'm not sure if it's a fascination with being a part of "public safety" (debatable at any rate) or what, but there are many out there that see "psych patient" as "clear and present danger to self, must strap tightly down with seatbelts and tie ends in knots to prevent escape." I see my pocket knife as a way to open my ravioli dish or cut the lint out of spider straps, other people see "primary defensive tool against my patients." It seems like these same "providers" treat their patients like they are in custody or something..."you are in my ambulance now you will submit to my care as I see fit, I am all that is EMS!"

Or something like that. Maybe I've just had a lot of wackjob partners, who knows.
 
Tigger said:
What if I said no?
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You have the right to refuse to give up your weapons or your potential weapons.

And I have the right to refuse to treat and transport you until you do.

It's really quite simple.
 
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