Why is EMS mixed with FD?

[46Young]

My PD has TEMS. Although our FD and EMS aren't integrated, I know that one of our suburb communities' FD and EMS are (my EMR instructor was a FF/EMT-P with said community).

My stance on the integration is big city = no go, rural/suburb community w/ lower population = probably not a bad idea.

that actually sounds like a good rule of thumb.

 

[46Young]

One thing's for sure, fire based EMS, at least at Coastal Cali, AZ, MD/DC/NoVa and similar places have a WAY better deal for the worker. Instead of demonizing fire based EMS and crying about how we've got the juice, how about trying to actually DO something about it?

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=14273

Or you could just sit there, and whine "FDEMS sucks, it's not fair, they're taking over, they're paid too much, wah wah wah"! I, for one, don't want to work until I'm 90 and have to decide between paying for meds, food, or electricity. I've seen way too many elderly who don't have a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of, as the saying goes. It shouldn't be that way. I'm not going out like that. Are you?

 

[46Young]

Answer me one simple question.

How many proper Fire calls are attended annually, & how many EMS calls do you run annually?

Now, calculate how much it costs to run a fire service & the income generated from those calls.

Repeat for EMS.

REALITY CHECK - EMS SHOULD RUN FIRE.

REALITY CHECK - IT'LL NEVER HAPPEN AS LONG AS EVERYONE COMPLAINS RATHER THAN ORGANIZING AND GETTING THEIR SHARE. THE FIRE SERVICE HAS THE JUICE, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. I started a thread in regards at the lounge.

It's not as simple as comparing call volume. It's analagous to buying insurance after you sustain an injury, illness, or robbery. You need to be prepared for the "what if"? When a structure fire or other significant event happens, there needs to be adequate resources to handle the incident. If they're mostly idle otherwise, that's besides the point. Now, what could we do with the idle FF's to better utilize their downtime? Oh wait...... that's right.......

Other than parking and speeding tickets, how much revenue does a PD generate? Should they be running fire or EMS? I don't follow the logic.

The FD will already have the infrastructure in place. It doesn't take too much to add some medics and ALS equipment for their engines.

 

[Seaglass]

that actually sounds like a good rule of thumb.

I agree.

Of the urban places I've seen, only one place with mixed fire/EMS doesn't have all kinds of issues. My cynical side says it's because they're all focused on waging war with the private companies.

I volunteer with a rural fire/EMS service. It's just too small to have a fire/EMS rivalry going on... if you don't get along with even one person, you're really not going to be able to avoid working with them. So not getting along with half the department isn't an option.

It seems like training's also important. Both places I mentioned require or strongly encourage everyone to train and run calls for both sides.

 

[subliminal1284]

Studying Kung Fu I once asked my sifu why its not a good idea to study many arts and he told me an old chinese saying..."Practices many, master of none"

 

[Seaglass]

Studying Kung Fu I once asked my sifu why its not a good idea to study many arts and he told me an old chinese saying..."Practices many, master of none"

Funny how many accomplished martial artists have studied more than one discipline.

 

[subliminal1284]

That was his point, you can be good in more than one, but you will never be a master of any of them.

 

[atropine]

That was his point, you can be good in more than one, but you will never be a master of any of them.

So what your saying is ems is okay, since the Dr.'s are the masters and we can still practice ems and suppression, I mean you take the patient to the er for the (Master) Dr. right?

 

[subliminal1284]

You didnt comprehend the meaning of the saying at all did you?

All it means is if you are trying to perform several acts you will never be as good in anyone of those acts as if you were studying and putting all your focus in to just one.

 

[Seaglass]

All it means is if you are trying to perform several acts you will never be as good in anyone of those acts as if you were studying and putting all your focus in to just one.

Or maybe the variety will mean you'll last longer before burning out.

I'm not sure it's an ideal solution, but there are some good firemedics out there. I can see how it's hard to have other options with small budgets.

 

[MRE]

Or maybe the variety will mean you'll last longer before burning out.

How about having enough calls with EMS and FD combined to keep people interested and active, where separate there are too few calls to do so.

 

[46Young]

Most people trying to master a specific martial art practice for what, maybe two to three days per week for two hours. Maybe they get to black belt, and maintain that while they round themselves out with another art. If MMA's didn't adapt by learning several disciplines, the Gracie clan would still be undefeated to this day. Remember the old videos of various accomplished stand up artists getting tapped easliy by the Gracies?

A firemedic will have had completed a medic program and a FF 1 and 2 academy at a minimum. Bonus points if you've worked for several years prior to crosstraining for the dual role position. We do regular EMS ConEd on duty, as well as EMS in station drills. We even go over a protocol in detail every monent at lineup. We also have a training matrix that mandates a number of company suppression drills monthly. We are also regulary taken out of service as a company while on duty for multi unit drills. This can be a live burn, maze training, throwing ladders/flowing water, medevac drill, etc. etc. Certainly more training than 6 hours a week between running calls and drills, to address your weak analogy regarding mastering martial arts.

I'm not saying that every dept does it like this, but our setup makes it optimal for maintaining proficiency in both disciplines. we're certainly not spreading ourselves too thin, despite what many may claim. Sorry (not really).

 

[46Young]

Or maybe the variety will mean you'll last longer before burning out.

I'm not sure it's an ideal solution, but there are some good firemedics out there. I can see how it's hard to have other options with small budgets.

Agreed that doing both helps protect against burnout. I can definitely do this for 30 years, barring a devastaing injury/illness. Way more advancement opportunities, too.

 

[alphatrauma]

Question...

- How would being a Paramedic make one a better Firefighter?
- How would being a Firefighter make one a better Paramedic?

Let's set aside pensions, burnout, bonuses, politics, etc...

If Joe FF is on scene during a structure fire, what element of his Paramedic training/education will help him in suppressing the blaze?

If John EMT-P is treating a critical CHF patient, what element of his FF education/training will enhance his ability to properly assess and treat this patient in the field?

Fire and EMS are not synonymous or interchangeable. It is a marriage of convenience, and statistically speaking, it's days are numbered. You do not need to be ALS to fight fires or extricate patients, nor do you need to be versed in fire science to provide ALS interventions.

 

[subliminal1284]

I am actually not against fire/ems being combined, In places with low call volume it just doesnt make economic sense to have a budget for fire and ems separately.

 

[firecoins]

we should combine sanitation with EMS. At least we have the same pickup time of 5AM.

 

[46Young]

Question...

- How would being a Paramedic make one a better Firefighter?
- How would being a Firefighter make one a better Paramedic?

Let's set aside pensions, burnout, bonuses, politics, etc...

If Joe FF is on scene during a structure fire, what element of his Paramedic training/education will help him in suppressing the blaze?

If John EMT-P is treating a critical CHF patient, what element of his FF education/training will enhance his ability to properly assess and treat this patient in the field?

Fire and EMS are not synonymous or interchangeable. It is a marriage of convenience, and statistically speaking, it's days are numbered. You do not need to be ALS to fight fires or extricate patients, nor do you need to be versed in fire science to provide ALS interventions.

You're right, being a paramedic doesn't make one a better firefighter.
Being a firefighter doesn't make one a better paramedic, either.
I never said it did. What I HAVE said is that being one won't necessarily detract from the other, provided one keeps up on their skills and Con Ed.

Statistically speaking, huh? Tell that to all of the firemedics that continue to be hired despite the dismal economic situation. I have observed station closings, RIF's, pay cuts and pay freezes, but nothing near the scale that others have suffered in the business sector. I think either Rid or Vent mentioned that even some RN's have been laid off, and it's increasingly difficult for new grads to find work. The handwriting is hardly on the wall regarding the fire/EMS marriage.

You're right, you don't need a P-card to be good at suppression, nor do you need FF 1&2 to be a good medic. It has been proven that one can do both, however. I'm currently paid about 15 grand or so over a basic FF. So, it costs Fairfax 15 grand/yr to supply an engine with an ALS qualified FF rather than a basic FF, giving an extra unit available for ALS coverage, a unit with a significant amount of downtime, statistically speaking. Compare that with the cost of a chase car with a medic.

You're right, fire and EMS is a marriage of convenience. It also happens to work well if run properly. It will continue to do so due in large part to unions, good PR, political muscle, etc.

 

[medic417]

we should combine sanitation with EMS. At least we have the same pickup time of 5AM.

And water department should take over fire as the both play with water.

 

[firecoins]

And water department should take over fire as the both play with water.

and police and library should be one organization because they both go by the book. Judges just throw books from benches.

 

[medic417]

and police and library should be one organization because they both go by the book. Judges just throw books from benches.

I think with our plans we can solve the budget crisis of the nation.B)