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Video RN screaming, dragged into police car d/t refused blood draw on unconscious patient!

Discussion in 'EMS-Related News' started by Summit, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Alan L Serve

    Alan L Serve Forum Lieutenant

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  2. Akulahawk

    Akulahawk EMT-P/ED RN Community Leader

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    Another possibility is that the other officers at the scene may have recognized that the arrest wasn't lawful and didn't get involved to keep themselves from being implicated in the resulting circus that has now resulted in 2 officers being placed on paid admin leave and looking at the end of their careers. Most of the officers I'm familiar with would (and do) quite enjoy getting involved when someone is resisting arrest.
    So do I,and most of the time this is true. The person being cuffed is either cuffed for officer safety while the person is being detained OR the cuffed person is under arrest for a specified crime. Neither was the case here. I know of an unrelated case in San Diego where a person was unlawfully arrested, couldn't be unarrested because there was no crime to unarrest for... and the person who was unlawfully arrested was well compensated for about 2 hours of his time. IIRC the arresting officer in that case also lost his job, probably lost his POST certificate...

    While it is lawful to resist being unlawfully taken into custody, it's a far better (and less self-injurious) to let the cop bury him or herself... the San Diego cop did exactly that. Cops also are taught to (basically) instinctively help out other officers that are involved in a fight. So while I might be legally in the right to badly hurt an officer that is trying to unlawfully arrest me and keeps escalating, at some point other officers get involved and I will be overpowered. It hurts the officer far more later if you don't resist and sue. Why? The officer usually loses qualified immunity... becoming personally liable. If I'm the one being dogpiled on, the fact that I'm legally right can get lost (quite literally) in the fray and my case becomes clouded with a resisting arrest charge (even if wrongfully filed).
     
  3. Tigger

    Tigger Dodges Pucks Community Leader

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    Things that I did not say: Police are my friends. That they serve me. That they have any loyalty to me. That I have experienced anything related to this not (though not sure how it could possibly matter for this discussion, something something logical fallacy).

    I agree that this crap happens all over the place, all the time, and that nothing is done. While working I see cops overstep what I would consider their duty to be all the time, often times to my benefit. I am not sure how ok I am with this, but it is nice to know that I probably won't get stabbed by a bum as a result.

    So I submit, if there is such a problem, what do you do about it? You've made your position clear (many a time), so what's the next step? I'm not the person that says "if you don't like it go put on a badge and gun and do better." I'll be more practical than that, but I really don't know what to do. There is a lot of case law on law enforcement's "side."
     
  4. DrParasite

    DrParasite The fire extinguisher is not just for show

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    I think you misunderstood what I said... When I referred to interfering with the arrest, I was referring to preventing the unlawful arrest from occurring. My cops that I know would gladly assist another LEO with a person who was resisting arrest, especially if it was a lawful arrest. As you said, had they assisted, they would be dragged into this embarrassment.
    And I hope the same thing happens in this case.
     
  5. Remi

    Remi Forum Deputy Chief Premium Member

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    Well, no other profession has the legal authority to bring violence upon other people that cops have, and then enjoy the same presumption that "they were only doing what they had to do to keep us safe" that cops enjoy. So cops should be held to a much higher standard for how they interact with the public and should be expected to de-escalate situations, but they are not. These days they are actually trained to do the opposite anytime they sense even the slightest resistance.

    I'm sorry, but if you have the ability and authority to intervene but instead just stand by fat and dumb and watch a cop manhandle an unarmed female who was clearly trying her best to protect her patient by following the law and her employer's policy, you are as much of a piece of crap as the one doing the manhandling.

    Re-read what I wrote. I didn't say anything about how she was dressed affecting the outcome. I said videos of cops acting just like this guy - unnecessarily escalating situations - are all over the internet, and usually, most of the comments are made in support of the officer under the presumption that no matter what you can plainly see on the video, the victim must somehow have had it coming. I'm sure some do. The only reason this video was different was because it involved a member of the most trusted profession. In other words, it revealed the fact that cops can and often do use violence even against people who clearly don't deserve it.

    All this proves is that, contrary to the "one bad cop" myth, this guy wasn't some lone bad apple. The supervisor himself was encouraging him to arrest someone who was clearly doing nothing wrong, just because they were angry and embarrassed at not being able to march into the unit and break the law themselves.

    Are you serious? Policing isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous professions. Truck drivers, garbage men, and welders are all more likely to be killed on the job. In 2014 more than 20 pizza delivery guys were shot on the job; many more were attacked physically and robbed. And they aren't even intentionally escalating encounters the way that police very often do.


    I stand by my statement that police are out of control. Am I saying that every cop is going out and beating innocent old ladies every shift, just for fun? Of course not. I'm saying there are way too many examples of police misconduct out there to assume that they were all somehow justified, or to dismiss them all as "isolated incidents". Over the past decades there has been a very real shift in the way that police relate to the public. They no longer view themselves as serving the public, they view themselves as enforcers whose enemy is the very public that their authority is supposedly derived from. They have shifted towards minimizing officer risk at the expense of risk to the public. They dress up like special operators and drive armored vehicles through the streets, mimicking an occupying military force, and displaying a similar mindset. 4th amendment protections have been eroded in order to make it easier for cops to find reasons to exert authority. This is all well documented.

    In 5 minutes I could list at least a dozen situations from just the past year or so where police abused their authority and hurt people unnecessarily. In 15 minutes I could probably dig up 20 such examples. I won't bother, because I know you'll dismiss every one for one reason or another. If a few hundred of these come across my news feed each year, how many do you think happen that we never hear about? How many times are members of the public intimidated subtly and just plain treated unfairly by cops? Countless times a year. I've seen it myself many times, working with cops in dense urban areas.

    I will say this: the problem certainly isn't just the fault of the police themselves. Many of the laws that police enthusiastically enforce are simply unjust and unfair, as are many of the penalties for certain crimes. This creates much more pushback and resistance from the "criminals" accused of these crimes than would exist if the laws were simply more reasonable. For example: If I get pulled over and ticketed for speeding, I'll probably be annoyed but I know that speeding could potentially result in my harming others, so I really only have myself to blame. If on the other hand I get pulled over and ticketed for not wearing my seatbelt, I feel rage. It's nobody's f-in business what I do as long as it doesn't harm others. Of course, a $100 ticket is not nearly worth running from the cops or physically fighting them over. If the penalty for not wearing my seatbelt was much more severe however, I would have even more anger - and less incentive to control it with the guy writing me the ticket.

    Bottom line is this: cops have a hard job, but they make it much harder on themselves by abusing their authority and treating people unfairly, and in some cases unnecessarily violently. This video is a perfect example of a scenario that is much more common than the law-and-order crowd wants to admit. Respect for and trust in police has steadily fallen for years, is probably at an all-time low, and is probably not going to change trajectory until police change the way that they approach and interact with the public. You can blame that on everyone but the police if you want, but nothing is going to change until the police do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
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  6. Chase

    Chase Flight Nurse

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    I have always supported the police and erred on their side however lately I am starting to realize there really is an issue with police accountability. I feel that officers should be held to a higher ethical and professional standard then they are in most cases. I understand that officers are human, are frequently targets of violence, and have to make split second life and death decisions however when they make a bad decision they need to be held accountable. It is hard to judge when fear, adrenaline, and instinct on both sides are to blame not malice intent however when an officer makes a morally corrupt decision they should be convicted.

    The Shockley case verdict is due anytime now and could cause unrest worse then Ferguson. I can understand the frustration, though I will never condone rioting and violence, if he is acquitted. Unfortunately, despite the morally/ethically irreprehensible actions he took before and after the shooting, "fearing for his life" will probably get him off.
     
  7. Bullets

    Bullets Forum Knucklehead

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    Because the person who caused the accident and put this guy in the hospital was running from the cops. If they can draw blood and prove that he was also drunk, then maybe they can avoid civil litigation when this guy wakes up and sues the pursing department.

    This is one of the main reasons why i got out of Law Enforcement. Too much unethical stuff that i couldnt abide and didnt want to be a part of. Its nice to hear other like @Remi share this sentiment.
     
  8. E tank

    E tank Forum Captain

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    ...I had an idea what the urgency was all about...
     
  9. Summit

    Summit Critical Crazy

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  10. DrParasite

    DrParasite The fire extinguisher is not just for show

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    let me guess... your a BLM supporter, you follow the racebaiting of Rev Jackson, and you think every time the cops shoot a person that it was murder, even if the facts don't support that claim... do I have that right?

    And no, the reason this is different is because the whole situation was captured on video, and the cop was legally in the wrong in his reasoning for initiating the arrest. But again, why let facts get in the way of a good generalization.
    no, that proves there is a systematic issue within that particular department, which was exactly what I said previously.
    where is the BS flag... I have one somewhere....

    Let me see if I can clear up some of your misconceptions. Truck drivers and garbage men die on the job because of vehicle crashes, and most of them aren't being intentionally targeted. I don't know what welders die from. But that's a very interesting statistic you provided about pizza delivery guys, stating 20 were shot on the job in 2014. Does that mean they were all killed? maybe or maybe not. Lets look at the number of cops who were killed by gunfire in 2014..... The answer is 48. And that number doesn't include the officers who were shot and did survive. I'm not even going to waste my time providing number for how many were assaulted, because you won't see the obvious.

    Dangerous professions will get you killed. This we agree on. But how many of those "dangerous professions" will result in your death at the intentional hands of others? I hope you know understand the difference.
    Ahh, I see it now. So an officer's life is less valuable to you now. You'd rather we lose a few more if it kept the public feeling safer. Those armored vehicles are designed to keep the officers safe; they want to go home to their families at the end of every shift, and I don't blame them one bit. I'm sorry if you feel threatened by them wanting to remain alive, but I support this 100%.
    So you pick random numbers, don't back them up with facts, acknowledge that in many situations there were justifications for their actions, and then because you can't find any other proof of it, believe it's a systematic conspiracy that is subtle and not reported? I'm not sure whether to give you more tin foil for your hat or say try not to loot anything or cause a riot at your next BLM march.
    So you are also aware that if you are in a car, involved in a motor vehicle crash, while unrestrained, you become a threat to everyone else in the car too right? There was even a TV commercial about it

    Or when you do crash, or someone crashs into you, and you suffer a TBI, as well as other injuries because you were unrestrained, why should my insurance rates go up to pay for your injuries, when many of them could have been minimized had you simply followed the law and worn a seatbelt (which is only there for your safety, how unreasonable).

    I bet you don't believe motorcycles or bicyclists should have to wear helmets either.

    Oh wait, I get it.... you are one of those entitled snowflakes who feel that if they don't like a law, they should just be able to simply not follow it. Or even worse, you knowingly break the law, and then get made at the officer for doing his job to enforce the law. I mean, how dare a law enforcement officer enforce the law!!!

    or are you one of those people who refuse to follow the law, but when someone catching you doing it, you say "but it's not my fault!!!!"

    Maybe when you are ready to accept the consequences for your actions (ie, act like a mature adult), then we can talk more.
     
  11. DrParasite

    DrParasite The fire extinguisher is not just for show

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    Bottom line, the cops have a hard job, but entitled pricks like you make it harder on them because you feel that the law shouldn't apply to you. This video is a perfect example of a cop abusing his authority, and the actions that followed are a perfect example of how a "victim" should respond. Don't physically fight back (you'll note, she didn't pick up a clipboard and try to smash it into the detective's head). File complaints with the appropriate people after the fact, demonstrate that you were legally in the right, get an attorney, and if you are at work, have your employer have your back. Most people don't do this. Maybe if they did, the bad cops would be removed from their positions.

    I don't deny there are bad cops, that there have been good cops who did some bad actions, and there are plenty of cops who really need to be sent packing. And while trust and respect for law enforcement is at an all time low, part of that is due to the fact that there are certain entitled groups who think the rules shouldn't apply to them, who think the cops are the enemy. The actions of certain law enforcement officers during the 80s, 90s, and 00s (and earlier generations) didn't help with that perceptions. But there is also so many who lack any respect for laws on this nation, so why would they even bother to respect it's enforcement officers?

    And you're right, cops are horrible at interacting with the public. And unlike you, I actually found several videos on youtube of cops interacting with the public:





    and I'll even give you one of what you consider to be a poor interaction, at least based on the comments


    cop upholsters draws his gun on a suspicious person, but doesn't aim it at him. but the person is suspicious, and keeps his hand his pocket, despite requests by the officer to remove it. Think the officer was wrong? he incorrectly escalated the situation? Many do.

    Lets make up a story. the cop keeps his gun holstered, so when the "victim" here pulls a handgun out of his pocket (which he had been holding onto out of sight, and puts two bullets in the cops head. the cop has no chance to respond. could it happen? Should it be allowed to happen?

    btw, here was the city's response http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4676869-181/pd-default-story-headline-xy

    I want every cop to go home at the end of every day. And while there are some bad ones that are in the minority, I still want them to go home at the end of every day. If you are ok with that not happening, well, then I guess we have nothing more to discuss.
     
  12. Akulahawk

    Akulahawk EMT-P/ED RN Community Leader

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    Given that Law Enforcement (LE) has zero duty to protect the individual, you are correct from a certain point of view. Most LE contacts are with people that don't follow the rules so they can sometimes start to think every member of the public is a threat. In fact, they're taught this in the Academy. Until you're a known/proven "good guy" then you're a potential threat.
    I agree that LE should be held to a higher standard. They should have significant latitude in how they deal with the public and also should have significantly stricter/harsher consequences if they violate the public trust. What has also been found is that there are greater numbers of injuries to LE among those trained in de-escalation vs those not trained it. LE is trained to use a sufficient amount of force to overcome resistance. When you de-escalate, you're looking to minimize the use of force and if that's your mindset and you get attacked, you're not mentally prepared to respond appropriately because the person is not following your game plan... they get inside your OODA loop and you're stuck reacting that much slower. I'm not saying training them to de-escalate is a bad thing, just that it's probably not taught appropriately for LE purposes.
    Yes, there is a perception and, to a degree, a reality of this. LE gets to put a "cover" over internal investigations thanks to what's commonly known as the "Law Enforcement Bill of Rights." In short, personnel matters are handled out of the public view and you might only hear of a result of an investigation if it results in firing a cop or if the investigation results in a prosecution.
    The guy they wanted to get blood from was the victim. In this case, the suspect that LE was pursuing crashed into the truck that the victim was driving. LE probably wanted blood to do testing to find out if he was at all potentially impaired and therefore this could lessen the impact upon the department at civil trial by essentially saying that if the victim was somehow impaired, he could have avoided the crash and therefore now shares some liability for the aftermath.
    As a member of the general public, I generally won't unholster unless I've made the decision to fire. Of course there are a few exceptions to this but they're very specific and I will NOT get into those. Like some here, I have also had LE training. Not as complete as some, but more than the general public. Hands are dangerous. If I can't see your hands, I'm going to have to use "more force" and an overt display of a weapon at low-ready is a use of force. At low-ready, I'm less than 1/4 second from an aimed shot, but that time difference may be sufficient to prevent me from being shot in the first place because I don't have to start from a holstered weapon, having to defeat at least 2 or 3 retention devices during the draw. Even so, I can go from holstered to aimed shot in less than 1.5 seconds but against someone that's already moving, I'm going to get shot first. If I still can't see your hands and you're not following commands to show them, I'm going to have to escalate.

    Think about this, someone that's willing to attack LE is easily willing to attack a member of the general public.

    Yes, I want LE to go home at the end of their shift. They just need to follow the rules so we can trust that LE wants us to get home too.

    And I'll end with this: Please keep this civil. I'm certain this thread is being watched. Thread moderation is a possibility if this starts going off the rails. Posts could be removed and people could start getting time-outs if it goes well off the rails. Again, please keep it civil. Thanks!
     
  13. Bullets

    Bullets Forum Knucklehead

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    That was my point. Thats why they were in a rush to get blood, to cover themselves. Which of course shines a light on the departments involved. Instead of doing the right thing procedural, lets try and pin it on some random motorist later so we arent as culpable for initiating a pursuit when it most likely wasnt needed.

    As far as being held to a higher standard, NYPD shot 9 people at the Empire state Building in 2012. What happened to those cops who accidentally shot 9 people? What would have happened if it was someone with a CCL who accidentally shot 9 people? I am sure that a civilian couldnt just say "Oops, sorry". If youre going to discharge your firearm then you are responsible for every bullet. If that bullet kills someone by accident then they should be prosecuted. I was under the impression that a clear backstop was something cops are trained to recognize before shooting. I know it was when i took my CCL class.
     
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  14. Remi

    Remi Forum Deputy Chief Premium Member

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    I'm not sure what is more notable about your ad hominem attacks; the fact that you'd insult someone you know nothing about just because they disagree with you, or the fact that you think someone is "entitled" just because they think abuse of authority is a problem. I also wonder if you'd insult me in person as readily as you do from a computer keyboard? I'm pretty certain that you wouldn't. That tells me a lot about your character.

    Look, it is clear that you are one of the many who don't believe in personal accountability or personal responsibility, and who thinks that we need a nanny state to make rules for us to follow so that we don't have think or make decisions for ourselves. People like you think that we need that same nanny state to send police to babysit us and make sure we follow the rules that they set for us, and you even think that having those babysitters abuse their power a certain percentage of the time is a perfectly reasonable price to pay for the feelings of safety and security that having them around brings you. In a nutshell, you prefer the illusion of safety over personal liberty.

    I get it. I strongly disagree with it and I think it's a weak-minded, cowardly, brainwashed way to live, but I understand why a majority of people feel that way. It's a scary world and it makes people feel better to think that the government babysitters are looking out for us and protecting us. You don't question it and you don't like other people questioning it because that would require you to face the possibility that they don't actually have our best interests in mind, and/or aren't really capable of providing the security that you so long for.
     
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  15. DrParasite

    DrParasite The fire extinguisher is not just for show

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    No, I'd gladly give you my opinion of you based on your asinine comments in person. And I'm only giving that opinion based on what you are saying. But if the shoe fits......

    I know you might not like it, but many laws exist to protect stupid people from themselves. in other cases, they are to prevent people from harming others. I didn't make the laws, but society does expect everyone to follow them.

    I'm going to ignore the rest of your cheap shots at me, and ask you one simple question: since you've been a paramedic for several years, with all the overdoses you have been to, car crashes, assaults, industrial accidents, knife and gun calls, and any other call that either involves a crime or a situation that is regulated industry, do you really think society would be better without any rules?

    And I do think law enforcement should be held to a higher standard, and the punishment should be more severe when they violate those standards.
     
  16. Summit

    Summit Critical Crazy

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  17. Remi

    Remi Forum Deputy Chief Premium Member

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    Nothing I wrote was a cheap shot. I'm not the one who started slinging the personal insults - that was you.

    First of all, that's a straw man. I never said anything about not having any rules. That's at least the second time in this thread that you've accused me of saying something that I did not. Why do you keep making things up?

    But it is a good question, and I have a good answer: Laws don't prevent bad things from happening.

    I've been to lots of assaults, and every one involved someone breaking laws that already existed. Same with "knife and gun calls". It's already illegal to stab and shoot people. And a large percentage of those crimes involve weapons that are illegally owned anyway. So clearly, the existence of laws against these things doesn't preclude them from happening. I don't think it even minimizes them, because most people don't need a law to keep them from assaulting or shooting others. Most of us refrain from doing those things because we inherently want to avoid violence.

    Overdoses? That's a really easy one. Do you think the drug problem has gotten better, or worse? We've waged a "war on drugs" for decades now, spent at least a trillion dollars, and basically gutted the 4th amendment in the name of keeping people from using drugs. What has it gotten us? Are we drug free? Are overdoses on a steep decline? Uh, no. Clearly, drug laws are not working. In fact a really, really good argument can be made that for numerous reasons, we'd be much better off if every drug was at lease decriminalized. This is because most of the problems related to drug use actually have little to do with the drugs themselves, and have much more to do with the black market that is the only place to obtain them.

    Traffic laws are no different. Should it be legal to drive recklessly? Of course not, because doing so can result in harm to others, and the one legitimate role for police is to enforce laws that keep a person's choices from harming others. But still, I've driven all over the country and never been anyplace where people didn't basically ignore speed limits unless there was actually a cop in sight. The estimated rate of people driving legally intoxicated has not fallen significantly over the decades, so it's questionable whether DUI laws do much at all. So even when the laws are "legitimate", they don't necessarily help much.

    Don't be so naive as to think that laws and babysitters can change human nature. We don't need to be told what to do with our own lives. Even things that ARE bad aren't necessarily best dealt with by criminalization. Jail isn't the answer to everything.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
  18. elshion

    elshion Forum Probie

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    The cop just got fired
     
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  19. DrParasite

    DrParasite The fire extinguisher is not just for show

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  20. PassionMedic

    PassionMedic Forum Crew Member

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    [QUbtPayne on paid admin leave, under criminal investigation.
    2.Mr. Gray (the burn victim) is also a reserve police officer in ID and his dept has thanked Nurse Alex for standing up for his rights.
    [/QUOTE]

    Payne has been terminated, his Lt has been demoted and I am so glad that his superiors took this seriously.
     

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