Video RN screaming, dragged into police car d/t refused blood draw on unconscious patient!

SpecialK

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America seems like such an ... interesting ... place.

A police constable has powers under the Transport Act to order a blood sample from a patient who is at the hospital on suspicion of a vehicle accident but their doctor must agree there is enough medical evidence to support this. This is regardless of whether the patient consents, or cannot consent. The applicable section also remits proceedings against the Crown arising from same.

This is distinctly different from the regular police procedure where patient can refuse and I guess the rationale is a higher standard of proof required; i.e. a police constable must have reasonable cause to suspect, and there must be enough medical evidence for a doctor to concur.
 

E tank

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Yes, interesting. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure as guaranteed by the 4th amendment of the Constitution of the United States has nothing to do with the opinion of a "constable" or physician or "enough" medical evidence, whatever that means.

Good thing too...that nurse might be in jail right now.
 

Carlos Danger

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I don't understand how you can make this statement based on well, anything.
I make this statement based on the fact that scenarios involving excessive force, coercion, lying, and planting evidence are not uncommon. Reports are all over the media, if you just choose not to ignore them. Video evidence of excessive force is uploaded to FB by someone, somewhere, seemingly every day. Minority communities complaining for decades about police abuse, with plenty of objective evidence to back up many of their claims. We have the the highest % of our population in prison of all industrialized nations. Also, even worse, the highest % of our population in prison for non-violent offenses. Baltimore, NYC, and Chicago PD's, all skewered by the DOJ for systemic violations of civil rights. Baltimore cops caught planting evidence. Phoenix sheriff had to be ordered by a federal judge to stop violating civil rights and he ignored the order and was cheered on by many for it. San Jose (I think) has had complaints against the police skyrocket while internal investigations of alleged misconduct decrease. These are just the ones off the top of my head from the past year or so. Police repeatedly shooting unarmed suspects and always - every_single_time - it was the fault of the suspect and never an issue with the temperament of the cop or with their training. The 4th amendment has chipped away to the point that for all practical purposes, it no longer exists.

And for the most part, we just accept it all as the price of having the cops keep us "safe". I don't know if it's that we've been that thoroughly conditioned to submit unquestioningly to authority, or if it is a form of cognitive dissonance.

What is so different about this video, that people actually overwhelmingly support the cop's victim in this case? Just the fact that she wore scrubs instead of a hoodie or a flannel shirt? Because I've seen lots of videos of very similar actions by the cops, but because it's in a parking lot instead of a hospital, and the person is wearing casual clothes instead of a healthcare uniform, the comments are overwhelmingly against the victim. People always just assume that the cops must have had a reason for the rough treatment, and have little or no empathy for the person getting roughed up for some minor "crime".

Guess what? The police aren't your friends. They aren't there to serve and protect you. They'll do that, if it serves their ends. They have no loyalty to the public; their real job is enforcing the will of the government, and protecting themselves and each other. The public is the enemy in their mind, and anyone who doesn't submit to any command is a threat. If this video isn't proof of that mindset (although again, it isn't very different from the hundreds of similar ones out there), I don't know what is.

What this guy did in this video happens every single day, all over the country. The fact that you've never experienced it is utterly irrelevant. Your refusal to acknowledge it doesn't make it untrue.
 
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SpecialK

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Yes, interesting. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure as guaranteed by the 4th amendment of the Constitution of the United States has nothing to do with the opinion of a "constable" or physician or "enough" medical evidence, whatever that means.

Good thing too...that nurse might be in jail right now.
A police constable who has enough evidence to suspect somebody has committed an offence under the Transport Act (driving while impaired) may instruct a blood sample be taken from that person provided they are in the hospital AND the doctor agrees there is enough medical evidence to reasonably suspect the person is at the hospital because of a road accident. There must be enough evidence as opined by the relevant parties; the police are experts in criminal evidence and procedure, and the doctor is an expert in medical evidence.

In practice what happens is the hospital takes blood anyway in most cases and the police just request serum ethanol be included so this provision is a bit redundant to be honest. I would imagine it was inserted to ensure the public interest of the administration of justice not be impinged. The idea ambulance personnel be somehow empowered to collect evidentiary blood has been bought up a few times and quickly and fiercely dismissed; nobody wants anything to do with it.

The mate is a copper, might see what he reckons about this ish.
 

DesertMedic66

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A police constable who has enough evidence to suspect somebody has committed an offence under the Transport Act (driving while impaired) may instruct a blood sample be taken from that person provided they are in the hospital AND the doctor agrees there is enough medical evidence to reasonably suspect the person is at the hospital because of a road accident. There must be enough evidence as opined by the relevant parties; the police are experts in criminal evidence and procedure, and the doctor is an expert in medical evidence.

In practice what happens is the hospital takes blood anyway in most cases and the police just request serum ethanol be included so this provision is a bit redundant to be honest. I would imagine it was inserted to ensure the public interest of the administration of justice not be impinged. The idea ambulance personnel be somehow empowered to collect evidentiary blood has been bought up a few times and quickly and fiercely dismissed; nobody wants anything to do with it.

The mate is a copper, might see what he reckons about this ish.
However in this case the patient the cop wanted the blood sample from was the victim of a crash from someone else who was DUI. There was no reason to suspect he was driving while impaired and he did not cause the accident. Law Enforcement could not arrest him because he literally did nothing wrong and was just a victim of a not at fault accident.
 

SpecialK

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However in this case the patient the cop wanted the blood sample from was the victim of a crash from someone else who was DUI. There was no reason to suspect he was driving while impaired and he did not cause the accident. Law Enforcement could not arrest him because he literally did nothing wrong and was just a victim of a not at fault accident.
Then in this case, I suspect said constable would need to convince a judge (even if at the end of a phone) to issue a warrant. Good luck mate, because that's not going to happen.

WTF was he thinking?
 

ExpatMedic0

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Looks like the cop just "snapped" and was clearly in the wrong. I really can't see how anyone can defend or justify the cops actions here.

"There's no dispute that the blood draw policy was jointly prepared and in effect for quite some time," according to the RN's attorney.
The mayor said, "What I saw on the video last night is completely unacceptable."
The police chief apologized and said this was disturbing.
The cop did not care about the police and hospitals own policy and decided to break it.
The cop has been suspended from the blood draw unit and is under review.
Lastly, Axe Cop would never do this ;-)
 

Iaidoka

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Can't believe this cop hasn't been suspended. The level of ignorance and willful malevolence displayed by this officer only brings disrepute to his calling.
I really hope this poor nurse takes this matter further.
 

Chimpie

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Can't believe this cop hasn't been suspended.
He's been put on administrative leave.

The department opened an internal affairs investigation, he said, and Friday evening the police department said Payne and another "employee" were placed on full administrative leave as a result of a criminal investigation into the incident. The department said the second person was an officer, but did not identify that officer.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/01/health/utah-nurse-arrest-police-video/index.html

Payne initially remained on duty although he was suspended from blood-draw duties. Later on Friday Utah police announced that he had been put on paid administrative leave.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/0...blood-on-unconscious-patient-video-shows.html
 
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Then in this case, I suspect said constable would need to convince a judge (even if at the end of a phone) to issue a warrant. Good luck mate, because that's not going to happen.

WTF was he thinking?
He's even on video saying there is no warrant because there is no probable cause. He knew what he was doing....
 

E tank

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I'd be interested to know what the urgency was all about. The chase suspect was dead, the patient was a commercial driver in the wrong spot at the wrong time... wrap it up and go home. The hand wringing that goes on between the 2 cops over the nurse's refusal is kind of odd, given the circumstances. Especially because any blood from the guy will show any number of CNS depressants at the point they wanted it and any attorney that wanted to could easily discredit it as evidence either way.

That it was a fatality/injury accident in the conduct of a police chase makes me wonder.
 
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UPDATE:

1. Lt ********* (watch commander) is also on paid administrative leave.

2. Payne is also a Paramedic and was placed on leave by his EMS employer.
 

CANMAN

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I make this statement based on the fact that scenarios involving excessive force, coercion, lying, and planting evidence are not uncommon. Reports are all over the media, if you just choose not to ignore them. Video evidence of excessive force is uploaded to FB by someone, somewhere, seemingly every day. Minority communities complaining for decades about police abuse, with plenty of objective evidence to back up many of their claims. We have the the highest % of our population in prison of all industrialized nations. Also, even worse, the highest % of our population in prison for non-violent offenses. Baltimore, NYC, and Chicago PD's, all skewered by the DOJ for systemic violations of civil rights. Baltimore cops caught planting evidence. Phoenix sheriff had to be ordered by a federal judge to stop violating civil rights and he ignored the order and was cheered on by many for it. San Jose (I think) has had complaints against the police skyrocket while internal investigations of alleged misconduct decrease. These are just the ones off the top of my head from the past year or so. Police repeatedly shooting unarmed suspects and always - every_single_time - it was the fault of the suspect and never an issue with the temperament of the cop or with their training. The 4th amendment has chipped away to the point that for all practical purposes, it no longer exists.

And for the most part, we just accept it all as the price of having the cops keep us "safe". I don't know if it's that we've been that thoroughly conditioned to submit unquestioningly to authority, or if it is a form of cognitive dissonance.

What is so different about this video, that people actually overwhelmingly support the cop's victim in this case? Just the fact that she wore scrubs instead of a hoodie or a flannel shirt? Because I've seen lots of videos of very similar actions by the cops, but because it's in a parking lot instead of a hospital, and the person is wearing casual clothes instead of a healthcare uniform, the comments are overwhelmingly against the victim. People always just assume that the cops must have had a reason for the rough treatment, and have little or no empathy for the person getting roughed up for some minor "crime".

Guess what? The police aren't your friends. They aren't there to serve and protect you. They'll do that, if it serves their ends. They have no loyalty to the public; their real job is enforcing the will of the government, and protecting themselves and each other. The public is the enemy in their mind, and anyone who doesn't submit to any command is a threat. If this video isn't proof of that mindset (although again, it isn't very different from the hundreds of similar ones out there), I don't know what is.

What this guy did in this video happens every single day, all over the country. The fact that you've never experienced it is utterly irrelevant. Your refusal to acknowledge it doesn't make it untrue.
Great post and completely true. Used to be a LEO years ago, and so glad I got out (for many reasons). John Q. Public also doesn't realize that police officer's actually have zero legal DUTY to protect. While still a LE supporter for the most part, and I certainly don't group all in one basket, in recent years the availability of social media, live streaming, and body cameras has certainly changed my views about alot of things. Knowing how I was trained in the State Police academy, I couldn't agree with your 4th paragraph more....
 

SpecialK

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Ultimately it devolved into "but muh athoritah!"
Attention wayward police constable ... newsflash mate ... your authority is only devolved from a set of statutory instruments, if you are not compliant with the provisions of same, well, you have no authority, so go take a flying leap would have been my answer.
 
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DrParasite

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UPDATE:

1. Lt ********* (watch commander) is also on paid administrative leave.

2. Payne is also a Paramedic and was placed on leave by his EMS employer.
I'm glad the Lt was put on leave too. from http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/...at-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-victim/
Payne — who says he wanted the blood sample to protect the patient, not punish him — said he was advised by Lt. James Tracy, the watch commander on duty that night, to arrest Wubbels for interfering with a police investigation if she refused to let him get the sample, according to his report.
and to make things clearer from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...duct-in-the-spotlight/?utm_term=.804ee331da4c
Payne’s lieutenant ordered him to arrest Wubbels if she refused to let him draw a sample, according to the Tribune.
This tells me that it's more than just one bad cop. When you have a supervisor giving the order to illegally arrest someone than it shows you have a systemic problem within the department.

Personally, I hope she hope she sues the police department. I also hope the county (who has opened a criminal investigation into this incident) files charges against the detective for battery, wrongful imprisonment, kidnapping, and abuse of power (and anything else they can find applicable).
 

DrParasite

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I make this statement based on the fact that scenarios involving excessive force, coercion, lying, and planting evidence are not uncommon. Reports are all over the media, if you just choose not to ignore them. Video evidence of excessive force is uploaded to FB by someone, somewhere, seemingly every day. Minority communities complaining for decades about police abuse, with plenty of objective evidence to back up many of their claims. We have the the highest % of our population in prison of all industrialized nations. Also, even worse, the highest % of our population in prison for non-violent offenses. Baltimore, NYC, and Chicago PD's, all skewered by the DOJ for systemic violations of civil rights. Baltimore cops caught planting evidence. Phoenix sheriff had to be ordered by a federal judge to stop violating civil rights and he ignored the order and was cheered on by many for it. San Jose (I think) has had complaints against the police skyrocket while internal investigations of alleged misconduct decrease. These are just the ones off the top of my head from the past year or so. Police repeatedly shooting unarmed suspects and always - every_single_time - it was the fault of the suspect and never an issue with the temperament of the cop or with their training. The 4th amendment has chipped away to the point that for all practical purposes, it no longer exists.
There are bad cops out there. But there also bad EMTs, paramedics, firefighters, nurses, teachers, politicians, priests, rabbis etc. You name it, and I can find at least one "bad" member of that profession. But just because one guy is bad doesn't make them all bad.

And whether you like to believe it or not, a lot of those suspects that cause riots when they get shot by police were actually acting in self defense. And when they don't, then yes, criminal charges are filed and a trial is held. I mean, if you were accused, you would want to be able to defend yourself, you wouldn't want to just be convicted by the lynch mob outside right? And no, I'm not saying all the shootings were justified, but many/most are...
And for the most part, we just accept it all as the price of having the cops keep us "safe". I don't know if it's that we've been that thoroughly conditioned to submit unquestioningly to authority, or if it is a form of cognitive dissonance.
Cops have a job to do. And they are trained, in the academy, that they are always right (even when they aren't, or have no legal basis to do what they are trying to do). And once they initiate an arrest, regardless of if it's a legit arrest or not, they are able to escalate the situation and use force to gain compliance. The time to argue whether you committed a crime or not is not while you are being arrested; that's what the trial is for. I have friends in law enforcement, and 99.99% of the time (maybe higher) when they are putting cuffs on someone, it's because said person committed a crime.

Which is why I don't fault the other cops for not getting involved; the office was making an arrest. Them interfering once the arrest was initiated was probably only going to make a bad situation worse.
What is so different about this video, that people actually overwhelmingly support the cop's victim in this case? Just the fact that she wore scrubs instead of a hoodie or a flannel shirt? Because I've seen lots of videos of very similar actions by the cops, but because it's in a parking lot instead of a hospital, and the person is wearing casual clothes instead of a healthcare uniform, the comments are overwhelmingly against the victim. People always just assume that the cops must have had a reason for the rough treatment, and have little or no empathy for the person getting roughed up for some minor "crime".
Seriously? Your going to go with that argument? If she had been dressed differently the outcome out be different? So your going to ignore the fact that she was doing her job. and the fact that “implied consent” law changed in Utah a decade ago. And in 2016, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that warrantless blood tests were illegal. and the fact that her employers written policy was being enforced, and her supervisor was on the line confirming it. and the fact that she was unarmed. and while she was verbally protesting the arrest, she wasn't really resisting the arrest, such as by attacking the cop or attempting to cause him any bodily harm. Oh, and she's not under the influence of any mind altering substances (except for maybe too much coffee).

So there are several differences in the circumstances in this arrest and many of the others. Including the fact that his supervisor said if she won't give you what you want, arrest her.

And yes, with the number of cops who die every year I can totally understand why they see the public as a threat. Maybe you'd like to look up how many get shot? https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2017 In case you don't want to actually deal in facts, 3/4 of the way through 2017, there have been 87; 31 were killed by gunfire. Last year there 146 cops killed in the line of duty; 63 from gunfire.

I'm not saying cops are perfect, and there are some bad ones out there. But there are even more who just want to do their job and make sure they go home to their families at the end of their shift.
 

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