Using force to defend yourself.

DT4EMS said:
An attacker is no longer a patient! It is their intent that makes the difference!
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Exactly. I've been hit by only 3 patients. I've never pressed charges because 2 of them were too intoxicated/AMS/frantic to realize their actions, and didn't mean to cause any harm. (The one actually apologized and shook my hand later when he came around. haha) The third was already in police custody, my charges would have just been a drop in the bucket. haha

And I attribute those numbers to my ability to just stay calm and talk to people rationally. I know a few people at my work that seem to always be fighting with the patients.. Lo and behold, they're also some of the most hot-headed, chip-on-the-shoulder EMTs around who "hate disrespect from our patients". Coincidence? ;)
 
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MonkeySquasher said:
Exactly. I've been hit by only 3 patients. I've never pressed charges because 2 of them were too intoxicated/AMS/frantic to realize their actions, and didint mean to cause any harm. (The one actually apologized and shook my hand later when he came around. haha) The third was already in police custody, my charges would have just been a drop in the bucket. haha

And I attribute those numbers to my ability to just stay calm and talk to people rationally. I know a few people at my work that seem to always be fighting with the patients.. Lo and behold, they're also some of the most hot-headed, chip-on-the-shoulder EMTs around who "hate disrespect from our patients". Coincidence? ;)
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So, are you suggesting the point of "Good Customer Service" being at the root of an EMS protection program could be used as a scene safety tactic? Heck....... and to think I was crazy for preaching such a thing..........

and NO........it's not coincidence........ I'll bet money on that. :)
 
DT4EMS said:
So, are you suggesting the point of "Good Customer Service" being at the root of an EMS protection program could be used as a scene safety tactic? Heck....... and to think I was crazy for preaching such a thing..........
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Heh. Well of course EMS is customer-service-oriented. But I think it comes down to you just putting yourself in the patient's shoes and showing some mutual respect. I get a much better response out of an uncooperative person by saying "Look, I understand you're upset. You didn't wake up this morning planning to end your day like this. Please don't be angry at me, I was told to come here, I didn't come on my own. I'm here to help you, and there's a certain procedure that must be followed. So we're going to do (A), (B.), (C). The outcome is (D). I promise the sooner you relax, we can all work together, and everything will run smoothly" than saying "Look, I'm trying to do my job, sit down and shut up."

Also, offering them a pillow seems to help. :D

I remember I had one guy who was so angry, he just said he wanted to punch things. "I'll punch him", "I'll punch this", "Im so pissed", "Im going to explode", etc.. Police were about to taze and/or arrest him. They were trying to 9.41 (mental health transport for threat to self/others). I talked to him, turns out he's a boxer and that's how he keeps his emotions in check, by punching a bag. He told me, he doesn't want to punch anyone, just something inanimate. So I put a pillow on the bench seat, and he punched it a bunch, and said he felt better. I told him LEO still wanted him to go talk to someone, but that I'll tell them what happened, and hopefully he'll be out shortly after. He agreed, and we had a nice calm transport talking about college and women. haha
 
medic417 said:
Guns now that does bring us to another important fork in this discussion.
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If guns are actively involved, you shouldn't be*

*Unless specialized subset, e.g. TAC-EMS or military medic (where you still don't want to touch weaponry, and lose UN designated status unless forced too)
 
military medic (where you still don't want to touch weaponry, and lose UN designated status unless forced too)
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It's a little more complicated than that and you're showing your ignorance of modern combat. We carried weapons all the time as medics while I was in the military whenever we went outside of a secured base. No one but the US and our allies abide by the Geneva Convention (not UN) regulations so it is not like it is going to matter if you're a medic or a grunt and are caught with a weapon. Also, very few people who wind up as medics are conscientious objectors ("Ooooh! Guns are bad! I can't kill anyone!") since there is no conscription so people who don't want to deal with guns usually don't enlist.

In modern warfare, would be exceptionally stupid to go into combat without being armed. We are allowed to carry but are "restricted" to use them only in the setting of protecting ourselves and our patients. Of course, my definition of that is a little loser than yours. If I can see them and they are carrying a weapon and are not on my side, they are a threat to me and my patient and I can and will shoot them. I've never lost sleep over those sorts of decisions. The moment someone starts shooting at you, your concern for their well-being and any flimsy preconceptions about how you don't want to use a gun goes straight out the window, whether you're a medic or not.
 
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Trayos said:
*Unless specialized subset, e.g. TAC-EMS or military medic (where you still don't want to touch weaponry, and lose UN designated status unless forced too)
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Wrong. Medical personnel (doctors, nurses, medics) are allowed to carry weapons for defensive purposes to protect not only themselves, but their patients, and still be under the full protection of the First Geneva Convention (what little crap that actually means).

Quote direcrtly from the Geneva Convention
The following conditions shall not be considered as depriving a medical unit or establishment of the protection guaranteed by Article 19

(1) That the personnel of the unit or establishment are armed, and that they use the arms in their own defence, or in that of the wounded and sick in their charge.
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And considering how NONE of our current enemies even care about the Geneva rules, why would a medic make himself unprotected since it is known that they are one of the first ones targeted in a firefight if they are able to be distinguished (which is why they try to look as much like the average infantryman as possible)
 
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And considering how NONE of our current enemies even care about the Geneva rules
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Neither did the Japanese during WWII. The medics in the Pacific theatre of operations (PTO) often carried weapons even though it was "technically" a violation of the regulations.
 
The Geneva Conventions are outdated, underthought, and a danger to the modern day 1st world country soldier.


They, and the UN, have outlived their Post-WW2 life, and need to be scratched and rewritten.


Alas, no one will go for that...
 
I agree about the Geneva Conventions needing to be reworked, but I disagree with you on the UN. People simply forget what it's role is supposed to be (to avoid getting into the situation where war is the response). Sadly, a lot of Americans forget that there are ways to deal with other countries that do not involve military force. Sometimes it is necessary, others it is not. But let's not go there since it will simply lead to a thread lock.
 
I was just getting at that the UN takes long enough to get crap done, and when something is finally agreed upon, it has little to any real affect / power to get the desired outcome outside of military action. (Iran anyone?)


The UN would suffer greatly if the US pulls out its funds (25% of their budget last I saw) and military forces... but a reason why we won't let it fail is because we still have that Veto power...


*sigh*
 
I love how one day I read a thread and we're talking about self-defense in EMS, and the next we're talking about international relations and the UN.

I love this forum.
 
(Iran anyone?)
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We've kept them in check so far haven't we? We attack them and we do the equivalent of kicking a nest of hornets. You might kill the one or two hornets that you want dead, but all their neighbors are going to get pissed and suddenly you're overwhelmed. Believe it or not, the dumbest move in the history of war is opening a second front. Two words for you: Operation Barbarosa. Three more words: Operation Iraqi Freedom.

There was a great quote from Otto von Bismarck: "Anyone who has looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier as he lies dying on a battlefield will stop and think long and hard before going to war". I've done that and I believe that is the most valuable lesson one can learn about the use of force at a broad level like war.

Like I said, let's not keep this up or we're going to get yelled at by the mods.
 
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I read a booked "Paramedic buff to burnt" ( i think it was called) a couple years ago. It was about an NYC medic. He was attacked once by a guy with a knife who tried to kill him. If I remember correctly him or his partner used backboards and whatever they could grab to beat this guy. The Author ended up remembering a move he learned in the marine corp and breaking the attackers arm.

But this video is one of my favs.

http://www.wkrg.com/caught_on_camera/article/man_punches_paramedic/20089/Oct-17-2008_5-17-pm/
 
schulz said:
I read a booked "Paramedic buff to burnt" ( i think it was called) a couple years ago. It was about an NYC medic. He was attacked once by a guy with a knife who tried to kill him. If I remember correctly him or his partner used backboards and whatever they could grab to beat this guy. The Author ended up remembering a move he learned in the marine corp and breaking the attackers arm.

But this video is one of my favs.

http://www.wkrg.com/caught_on_camera/article/man_punches_paramedic/20089/Oct-17-2008_5-17-pm/
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That video must be a fake......... because that type of stuff NEVER happens....... (sarcasm)

I actually like that clip for a teaching tool. Many issues here......

The guy was amped..........why was it EMS' responsibility to deal with him? The guy was a bystander.......

With all of the body language presented, why did the provider stay so close? (More often than not it is the willingness to help everyone)

The audio showed the medic was "angry" after the fact when he comments "I'm fine" or something along those lines........ and it was obvious he was deriving pleasure from using force in retaliation for the attack.

Also...... with the removal of the shirt and the loud verbal language, waving of the arms etc this guy is prime for being an excited delirium candidate.

These happed almost every day................ just so happens a video camera caught this one.
 
I have to say that the gentleman in that video doesn't seem to be presenting with excited delirium, I do believe that the issue for that man more due to “exhaustive mania” per Dr Bell 1849, or there is a potential that this man is suffering from neuroleptic malignant syndrome (NMS) both of these medical issues have similar S/S to excited delirium,and can have the same ending eg:death. But a major difference is that those two conditions have more to so with the person taking antipsychotic drugs as opposed to those who use psychostimulants (cocaine, methamphetamine, MDMA) and have mental health issues.

The EMS provider that was hit in the video, well he may have some of his own mental health issues to work out. He took a little to much pleasure from being in a fight.

just my .02 cents
 
DT4EMS said:
Unprepared because many believe that preparing for defending oneself in EMS means smashing them with the O2 bottle or "doing whatever it takes" and "I'll worry about the court later type of mentality" without training.

The former medic in Denver.............who is now serving 12 years in prison..........for having that same mentality. Smashing a guys face..........when REASONABLE is a good deal. Those that sit and talk about how they will handle the court later must realize you can PREPARE for the court before you ever go.
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the former medic in denver? who gave a seizing patient a skull fracture and broke his orbit? and then tried to cover it up and blame the cops? not exactly the shining example of self defense, don't you agree?

now, if you have a guy on PCP or who you just woke up using narcan who now has his hands wrapped around your thought, and the only way you can get free is by hitting him in the face with something hard causing damage, then yes, that's justifiable force. and if not, then I would rather be tried by 12 instead of carried by 6.

here is an example from my past. I was dispatching one night, and sent my EMS crew to an EDP. No report of violence, no reports of weapons present, so PD doesn't get sent before EMS. The crew gets there, and 3 minutes later, I hear a panic call stating "send me PD, he has a knife!!!!!" So now my 2 person EMS crew is in a room, with an EDP armed with a knife, and I am betting they can't get out easily. even after sending all available PD and additional EMS units to assist (yes, we look after our own here), they advised the situation was under control before help arrived. So if they were forced to break the guys elbow to get him to break the knife, or him in the face with an object to remove the threat (the knife in his hand), I would back the crew 100%.

unfortunately, EMS has to go into places we don't know, often with just a two person crew. not every area has PD securing the scene. I have heard stories from coworkers that EMS used to pick up shooting victims and be enroute to the trauma center before PD even arrived at the scene. We don't have guns, we don't have vests, we don't carry weapons. and we deal with "nice people" who often don't mean us harm, and others who don't intend to harm us, we just end up being collateral damage. This happens more in the urban cities more than the suburbs, due to having fewer cops available for all the calls.

I'd rather be serving time in jail than be serving time in a pine box 6 feet under. but that's just me.
 
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