Universal Health Care
- Thread starter bonedog
- Start date
stephenrb81
Forum Lieutenant
- 211
- 1
- 0
Yes....It will be approved at the next "No girls allowed" meeting in the tree house
Joking aside, the OP seemed a bit attacking. Personally, I wouldn't know how to act about universal healthcare...Since I've spent alllll my adult life paying an insulting percentage out of my check in insurance premiums for my family's healthcare
Joking aside, the OP seemed a bit attacking. Personally, I wouldn't know how to act about universal healthcare...Since I've spent alllll my adult life paying an insulting percentage out of my check in insurance premiums for my family's healthcare
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
- 11,322
- 49
- 48
Sorry AMA still has powerful lobby.
So do "H" "M" O's and insurance co's.
Not only are we forcing people to go to ER's for primary care, we're shutting down the ER's. (See Los Angeles for an example).
So do "H" "M" O's and insurance co's.
Not only are we forcing people to go to ER's for primary care, we're shutting down the ER's. (See Los Angeles for an example).
imurphy
Forum Captain
- 362
- 0
- 16
Social. Healthcare. Rocks.
Well that's my experience from back home. No need to worry about getting sick, apart from, ya know, the being sick thing. I was in hospital with a frac femur a couple of years ago for 10 days. Had surgery etc. I got out and I got a bill for IR£200. (about €400 / $500)
Well that's my experience from back home. No need to worry about getting sick, apart from, ya know, the being sick thing. I was in hospital with a frac femur a couple of years ago for 10 days. Had surgery etc. I got out and I got a bill for IR£200. (about €400 / $500)
In terms of how it would affect providers, Paramedics could expect a MUCH higher pay, being pretty much subsidized by the government. Who wouldn't like to make the 100,000(?) they make in Canada? I'd personally prefer that over my 25,000 a year.
And that's not even taking into account people no longer going to the ER for dental decay, doctors no longer having to ask permission from men behind a cubicle to treat you, and people being driven into complete poverty and suicide by medical bills or dying from lack of care.
Yes please.
But to answer the question, no. There's no chance. If Obama gets elected, it's a great step in the right direction though.
P.S. There's nothing wrong with socialism. Look up the word.
And that's not even taking into account people no longer going to the ER for dental decay, doctors no longer having to ask permission from men behind a cubicle to treat you, and people being driven into complete poverty and suicide by medical bills or dying from lack of care.
Yes please.
But to answer the question, no. There's no chance. If Obama gets elected, it's a great step in the right direction though.
P.S. There's nothing wrong with socialism. Look up the word.
Unless you can provide more evidence I have to respectfully disagree. I worked in the billing office at a service as an intern in high school. Medicare and medicaid are the two worst systems (don't pay at all compared to private insurance) to work with and they are provided by the government. I don't see how the government taking over control of all insurance will make it any better. Private insurance often pays a larger portion of the bill than medicare and I can still bill the patient for the remainder after they've paid.
I agree that they're the worst systems ever...
...except for the insurance system.
That's right, the insurance system is worse. Why? Because the goal of insurance companies is to make money at the expense of their customers. Insurance companies do not care about people. Insurance companies WILL seek any excuse not to let you receive care (or rather, to not pay for such care).
I don't think insurance companies should be part of the system at all. I don't want government to take over insurance agencies. I want insurance agencies eliminated. They really have no place in health care.
So, let's throw those out. Social health care requires no real deep thought. This is not something that is new and has never been done before. This is a successful system in the country just north of us. Let's borrow.
It's simple.
You pay a tiny bit extra in taxes, and in exchange, EVERYONE in the country can get the care that they need when they need it, free of cost. As a paramedic, no longer does your company need to write off 6 million dollars a year of money that they can't collect. No longer are you making just barely above minimum wage. No longer do you have to try to talk an elderly patient bleeding to death that he needs to go to the hospital and listen to him tell you he doesn't have enough money to. I could go on, but really, does this not appeal to you?
I understand you thinking our government is incompetent. And right now, it is. But if the man who I believe is going to win the election does, we'll finally have something with the intellectual ability to put such a plan in action. And if it's possible, can you really turn it down?
I know Canada has a system and it works well but I'm in all honesty not familiar with the hows at all. So without that knowledge to go on my view is this, if working people are paying extra taxes to fund this system that in turn will pay medical providers where do they get the money to cover medical expenses of the unemployed or retired? As our government sits currently they're very good at giving away money they don't have but my hope is that they stop that habit which would mean those of us working and paying taxes would have to cover the cost of those who aren't.
I understand that in this system we wouldn't be paying for the insurance companies CEO's third house by the lake but we would pick up an exceptional burden in paying the costs of those that are currently uninsured.
I understand that in this system we wouldn't be paying for the insurance companies CEO's third house by the lake but we would pick up an exceptional burden in paying the costs of those that are currently uninsured.
- 703
- 9
- 18
Here's an interesting article about Obama's so-called health care plan:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/obamas_health_care_plan.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/obamas_health_care_plan.html
stephenrb81
Forum Lieutenant
- 211
- 1
- 0
Another thing to look at about 'Insurance Systems'
I can't speak nation wide because I have no proof, but locally from my own experience it's pretty twisted.
Pre Insurance: I go to the ER for stitches. I get slammed with an ER bill over $700. I get billed, and one of the adjustment for the bill was almost -$200 since I was un-insured......Bill was then roughly $500
One would immediately get the impression: "They offered you a discount and was willing to work with you since you were uninsured"
The truth is that it was the other way around.....I was getting the *true* cost (True cost was after the 'discount') while insurance was billed the 'inflated' version
I can't speak nation wide because I have no proof, but locally from my own experience it's pretty twisted.
Pre Insurance: I go to the ER for stitches. I get slammed with an ER bill over $700. I get billed, and one of the adjustment for the bill was almost -$200 since I was un-insured......Bill was then roughly $500
One would immediately get the impression: "They offered you a discount and was willing to work with you since you were uninsured"
The truth is that it was the other way around.....I was getting the *true* cost (True cost was after the 'discount') while insurance was billed the 'inflated' version
Last edited by a moderator:
stephenrb81
Forum Lieutenant
- 211
- 1
- 0
This could turn into a mature discussion, lets try to express opinions carefully
Please read also the many unbias non-personal articles on his plan. I appreciate that you're giving sources, but as with all the other forums I frequent, there's a strict rule on unbias news sources only. Citing personal opinions and blogs are typically a poor idea for one really important reason:
They're wrong. Or, in this case, important information and answers already given by Obama on the questions raised in that article are missing. I mean, let's be honest. It's a blog. And with articles such as "Obama's campaign built on lies," you can't honestly believe to find legitimate factual information there, can you? I'd rather you watch Fox news than read that garbage.
That aside, we have two plan choices. Either we can have the Obama system where you can keep your current plan if you're insured and have no change except for lower rates, the uninsured being provided affordable healthcare. Or we can choose the McCain tax plan which is just...5,000 dollars. The government gives you 5,000 dollars in credit and you can go purchase a 12,000 dollar plan with it. That being said, doing the math, I believe that to be a loss. A big loss.
Ridryder911
EMS Guru
- 5,923
- 40
- 48
We have socialized medicine now, its just called insurance. Does one really think having such would increase the level of care and provide the monies needed for research, development? ......Think again.
One reason many other countries can afford socialized medicine is because we (U.S.) mainly perform the research, development of new medications and procedures. The pharmaceutical companies are thief's yes, but also do spend billions in development of new medications in which the majority of other countries get the benefit of.
Do I like insurance companies, but as much as I like attorneys.. their all rotten but to allow the government dabble anymore into health care is dangerous. You believe you have a division of classes now, just await for those that have government program and those that could afford the private... for example ask our friends up North what the general waiting time is for a CABG? As well, look at the extreme shortage of nurses.. why, just look at the pay structure.
Sorry, I had studied the crap Bill & Hillary attempted to shove, and one of the few times I supported AMA and placed monies into a lobbying group. There has to be a better and more defined method.
R/r 911
One reason many other countries can afford socialized medicine is because we (U.S.) mainly perform the research, development of new medications and procedures. The pharmaceutical companies are thief's yes, but also do spend billions in development of new medications in which the majority of other countries get the benefit of.
Do I like insurance companies, but as much as I like attorneys.. their all rotten but to allow the government dabble anymore into health care is dangerous. You believe you have a division of classes now, just await for those that have government program and those that could afford the private... for example ask our friends up North what the general waiting time is for a CABG? As well, look at the extreme shortage of nurses.. why, just look at the pay structure.
Sorry, I had studied the crap Bill & Hillary attempted to shove, and one of the few times I supported AMA and placed monies into a lobbying group. There has to be a better and more defined method.
R/r 911
- 703
- 9
- 18
When it comes to politics, shared thoughts, opinions, etc. can easily be taken as a personal bias. The author of this particular article raised some interesting questions and furthermore the author did cite reputable sources. I can't speak for the content of other articles on American Thinker. All I was doing was sharing a contrasting side to your support Obama's health care plan.
I have to question some of your comments. For instance in one thread you claim, "Paramedics could expect a MUCH higher pay, being pretty much subsidized by the government". What support do you have to make such a statement? You certainly can't be thinking that Canadian medics average $100,000 a year? Or is that your personal opinon?
Ray
I don't like the idea. I can't remember ever reading anything in our Constitution that gives the government the power or the right to go that route. I prefer to be able to choose how I care for myself based on my wants, needs, and abilities. I like to keep the government out of my personal affairs as much as possible. I also think it would turn into a financial black hole as the government doesn't seem to be able to do very many things efficiently. I have this fear that I'd end up paying more in taxes for healthcare benefits than I pay out of my check now....and I'd have less control over it.
Just my feelings.
Just my feelings.
- 703
- 9
- 18
And just what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You're way way off topic here.
:beerchug:
Took some of the words out of my mouth.
Hastings its sweet that you think the government cares about you, but where you got this notion that politicians (who make up the government after all) are less crooked than insurance company claims people I'll never know. Everyone is looking out for themselves, and the insurance co's are so in bed with the political leadership that their nigh on indistinguishable.
If you think socializing medicine any more than it already is is going to keep people from using the ED as a PCP, you're nuts. The reason people dont go to their PCP isn't just that they don't want to pay, but that there simply aren't enough PCP's anymore. The reason is that no one wants to become a PCP anymore. I've been warned time and time again about the perils of considering primary care medicine - the bureaucracy is far too oppressive, and most PCP's hate their job and are trying to get out.
Managed care is killing primary practice. Insurance companies mimic medicare and medicaid regulations, Dr.s spend tons of money and hours just filling out forms to get paid, have to conform with all sorts of mandated unrealistic treatment polities (15 minutes per pt., etc.) and the re-inbursement rate, especially from the government, is HORRIBLE. The result is long miserable hours, insufficent time with patients, high stress, and low wages for PCP's.
Why on earth should any insurance pay for primary care in the first place?? does car insurance pay for an oil change? NO! Insurance is for unexpected large costs. Yet this is exactly the sort of inefficient over management that government intervention brings.
The sort of managed care proposed by all of these socialized plans sounds nice because it removes the patient from the actual turning over of money for care - it seems free. If you think its free, you're nuts. You pay MORE than you would otherwise, because the costs are hidden, and pt.s are no longer consumers - there's no incentive to shop around for better prices or manage your own health to try to minimize costs.
Everyone pays one way or another. Think gov't subsidized managed care is so great for poor people? What happens when the new pres's promises of streamlined care don't save as much as he hoped? Asnwer: the government magics money out of thin air, prints more dollars to pay for the deficit. Result: inflation, meaning the little money the poor has is now worth less. Woo hoo they can get breast reduction surgery for free! Too bad they can't eat....
There's no free lunch, everyone pays even if the payment is hidden, and the result of more management and more oversight is ALWAYS increased inefficiency.
One of the (fewish) bright spots in primary practice, in my opinion:
http://www.physicianspractice.com/index/fuseaction/articles.details/articleID/1200.htm
back to basics - localize, streamline, and cut out the sense of entitlement. you want solutions - look away from the government......
HA!
I missed this one. NOTHING the government has EVER done is "simple." I mean that very literally. Name one thing. Just one.
This certainly won't be it. Ignore the massive billing infrastructure. Ignore the special intrest lobbying to adjust prices upwards (which gets passed on to the consumer eventually...either outright in taxes, or through the back door with inflation). Ignore the differences in cultures, economies, health issues, etc. across this huge company.
What about the managed aspects of this? who decides what surgeries are necissary, and which are elective. Who decides when the surgeries are performed? What happens when it turns out there aren't enough OR's to go around?
What happens when rich people buy health insurance anyways (as Rid suggests) and pay a premium for better faster service? what keeps the dr.s from bolting to serving that customer base?
What about experimental (read: expensive!) treatments? what about a pacemaker for 95 year old grannie?
the government, in all its wisdom, will be making these decisions. The result: LOADS of red tape. The government is very good at printing the stuff. only problem is red tape is expensive....
simple my foot.
I can see people being scared of the government running anything in the land of stars and stripes. (Just watched Dubya
Although your armed forces seem to be run well, isn't that an arm of the government?
One would think that physicians would make the decisions on who gets treated, triage of sorts. Rather than some bean counter from the HMO...
Karaya, my point is if you have $500,000 or equivalant for every tax payer, why would you give it to the company exec's that ruined your banking/mortgage system. Better to give it too the people who need to pay off their mortgage, and IF you have this kind of money to throw around, wouldn't it be better to use a portion to provide health care ? It's all just taxes.... maybe a too altruistic for a capatilist.
Although your armed forces seem to be run well, isn't that an arm of the government?One would think that physicians would make the decisions on who gets treated, triage of sorts. Rather than some bean counter from the HMO...
Karaya, my point is if you have $500,000 or equivalant for every tax payer, why would you give it to the company exec's that ruined your banking/mortgage system. Better to give it too the people who need to pay off their mortgage, and IF you have this kind of money to throw around, wouldn't it be better to use a portion to provide health care ? It's all just taxes.... maybe a too altruistic for a capatilist.