Universal Health Care

[enjoynz]

Well what ever the States do or how they act over this time....the rest of the world waits with baited breath!
Sueing EMS for sneezing has got to stop though,in my view, that has got way out of line in world standards of ambulance care.
Let alone all the other things people sue each other for in the States!

As far as the health care system goes...we and a lot of other countries manage with the Governemnt calling the shots....
but it is not the ideal (as Rid says), for funding of medical research,etc, although there is a lot of medical research done in NZ.
More of the problem lies in the cues waiting for surgery in the public hospitals!

Cheers Enjoynz

 

[BEorP]

I have to question some of your comments. For instance in one thread you claim, "Paramedics could expect a MUCH higher pay, being pretty much subsidized by the government". What support do you have to make such a statement? You certainly can't be thinking that Canadian medics average $100,000 a year? Or is that your personal opinon?

1. We get paid more because of our education. It has nothing to do with universal healthcare. In fact, under the Canada Health Act the provinces (who run the government health insurance programs) are not obligated to cover ambulance trips.
2. It is definitely not the norm, but a road medic in a large city in Ontario (i.e. Ottawa or Toronto) who works a lot of OT can make over $100,000 a year (source: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2006/munic06.pdf).

 

[jochi1543]

I agree with BEorP on the pay, a friend was an ACP supervisor in Toronto and she told me she made $120K. That's getting extremely close to what a full-time family physician makes, with far less education. She said she had about 40 subordinates.

EDIT: and I have a buddy who was a medic in Chicago, also a supervisor, and he was very happy with being paid in the high $40Ks (well, really, he wasn't, but it wasn't below average or anything, heh).

 

[karaya]

I agree with BEorP on the pay, a friend was an ACP supervisor in Toronto and she told me she made $120K. That's getting extremely close to what a full-time family physician makes, with far less education. She said she had about 40 subordinates.

EDIT: and I have a buddy who was a medic in Chicago, also a supervisor, and he was very happy with being paid in the high $40Ks (well, really, he wasn't, but it wasn't below average or anything, heh).

These are not average pay scales. Sources as shown in this thread are mostly supervisory positions which is not out of the norm even here in the states. This is a source for median EMT / paramedic salary in Canada: http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Emergency_Medical_Technician_(EMT)_/_Paramedic/Salary

In my area, St.Louis, unions are very powerful and paramedics start around the 50k range and many are in the 90k to 100k range within five years with OT. More if they are supervisers. They only work nine days a month and most have 100% fully paid health insurance including dependents. Not bad at all for considering this is all through tax funding, insurance billing and no universal health care.

 

[fortsmithman]

Here in my part of Canada the Northwest Territries our health care cover Drs appointments, surgical procedures, hospital stays. It does not cover prescription drugs, eye glasses, dental procedures, and Ambulance services. The only way the previous are covered if the pt is a senior citizen. I checked one of the amulance service web sites from Alberta and this is what is paid
EMT wages are from $20.93 - $25.54 and Paramedic wages are $26.40 - $31.25. Air ambulance paramedics make 95k before OT is factored in.

 

[jochi1543]

Here in my part of Canada the Northwest Territries our health care cover Drs appointments, surgical procedures, hospital stays. It does not cover prescription drugs, eye glasses, dental procedures, and Ambulance services. The only way the previous are covered if the pt is a senior citizen. I checked one of the amulance service web sites from Alberta and this is what is paid
EMT wages are from $20.93 - $25.54 and Paramedic wages are $26.40 - $31.25. Air ambulance paramedics make 95k before OT is factored in.

Do you have to pay a premium for NWT healthcare? I think AB is in the minority of provinces in that we have a premium, I think it's like $44 a month or something. But I think I've heard that they are going to stop charging anything, since the budget surplus is so ridiculous, there really isn't any excuse to charge for healthcare.

 

[fortsmithman]

These are not average pay scales. Sources as shown in this thread are mostly supervisory positions which is not out of the norm even here in the states. This is a source for median EMT / paramedic salary in Canada: http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Emergency_Medical_Technician_(EMT)_/_Paramedic/Salary

I never heard of this site to get a accurate picture of what EMS makes try Statistics Canada a federal govt dept here in Canada that gather info. Here EMS agencies are required by federal statute as is everyone else to fill out te stats canada forms when required.

 

[fortsmithman]

Do you have to pay a premium for NWT healthcare? I think AB is in the minority of provinces in that we have a premium, I think it's like $44 a month or something. But I think I've heard that they are going to stop charging anything, since the budget surplus is so ridiculous, there really isn't any excuse to charge for healthcare.

Nope we don't.

 

[BEorP]

These are not average pay scales. Sources as shown in this thread are mostly supervisory positions which is not out of the norm even here in the states. This is a source for median EMT / paramedic salary in Canada: http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Emergency_Medical_Technician_(EMT)_/_Paramedic/Salary

I never claimed that $100,000 a year was average. I only said that in big cities in Ontario it is possible. I don't know where payscale.com gets their info, but I question its accuracy. In Ontario, base wage for a PCP would be around $30 an hour which would translate into $60,000 a year (plus OT).

 

[Ridryder911]

I never claimed that $100,000 a year was average. I only said that in big cities in Ontario it is possible. I don't know where payscale.com gets their info, but I question its accuracy. In Ontario, base wage for a PCP would be around $30 an hour which would translate into $60,000 a year (plus OT).

No matter the exact amount, the pay is three to four times the average amount as in the U.S.

R/r 911

 

[bonedog]

In BC ACP get 6K to work in Prince George, which isn't quite half way up the province.

Of course we have to remember these are Canadian peso's....

 

[EMTinNEPA]

Anything the government can do, the private sector can do better. 95% of the medications out there today were developed by PRIVATE companies for a PROFIT. F:censored: government interventionism. Let the market go. If somebody jacks up their prices, then another company comes along, offers the same or better services for less, and undercuts the price-jackers. Free market is NOT a bad thing.

The last thing we need is anybody being able to take an ambulance ANY time and not pay a cent. Every day, you'll have some moron tying up a MICU for a toothache, or because he has the sniffles. Meanwhile, some poor old lady is having an MI two streets over and the next due ALS will take 20 minutes to get there, even riding emergent, because both the local ALS trucks are tied up on a papercut and pink eye and the local BLS is tied up playing taxi service for a kid with a runny nose and a mom infected with NPS. It's like if there was "universal grocery insurance". Hey, I COULD eat what I have to in order to survive and make the most of my money since I'm paying for it. OR... I'm going to load up my cart with tenderloin steak, go home, eat until I'm full, then let the rest rot in the back of my freezer or in a garbage can. Who cares? The government's paying for it.

NO to Universal Health Care. NO to socialism. Privatize EVERYTHING.

 

[Meursault]

ranting

Free competition works great for nearly anything that can be treated as a consumer good. One of the reasons for this is that consumers can decide to forgo purchasing things if they're too costly.
Health care is not based on the consumer model. Emergency medicine and EMS, especially, can't follow that model. Would you like a multitude of for-profit fire companies? Do you expect someone injured and entrapped in a car to make informed choices among possible rescue and treatment options?

Your grocery analogy also fails to take the difference into account. You are informed and competent to manage the amount you spend on groceries. That's not true of healthcare; a lot of costs are hidden or unknowable before the fact, and patients are frequently not informed or competent to determine what they should be purchasing.
As a counterexample, let's say your idealized free-market grocery store is transplanted to Darfur. Is it still a just arrangement?

System abuse is an issue in non-universal healthcare systems as well. You might be right in claiming that it would increase or be more difficult to control under a universal system, but any good system, and a number of the okay ones in existence, like the NHS, take measures to control resource utilization.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

Free competition works great for nearly anything that can be treated as a consumer good. One of the reasons for this is that consumers can decide to forgo purchasing things if they're too costly.
Health care is not based on the consumer model. Emergency medicine and EMS, especially, can't follow that model. Would you like a multitude of for-profit fire companies? Do you expect someone injured and entrapped in a car to make informed choices among possible rescue and treatment options?

Your grocery analogy also fails to take the difference into account. You are informed and competent to manage the amount you spend on groceries. That's not true of healthcare; a lot of costs are hidden or unknowable before the fact, and patients are frequently not informed or competent to determine what they should be purchasing.
As a counterexample, let's say your idealized free-market grocery store is transplanted to Darfur. Is it still a just arrangement?

System abuse is an issue in non-universal healthcare systems as well. You might be right in claiming that it would increase or be more difficult to control under a universal system, but any good system, and a number of the okay ones in existence, like the NHS, take measures to control resource utilization.

A multitude of for-profit fire companies WOULD be a good thing, because then they'd all be competing to be the BEST fire company. It's like that around here already. If there's an MVA in Nescopeck Township, do they send the Nescopeck Fire Department? No. They send the Berwick Fire Department from across the river because they know Berwick is a superior company and Nescopeck are a bunch of screw-ups.

If patients are not informed, then they should demand to be informed. There are plenty of clinics across the country with price lists... routine check-up: $20... blood tests: $40... etc. Why couldn't hospitals do this? The problem is that if you walk up to a doctor, pull out your checkbook, and say "how much for an MRI?", they couldn't tell you.

And isn't making everybody "self-pay" a great deterrent for system abuse?

 

[bonedog]

" Let the market go. If somebody jacks up their prices, then another company comes along, offers the same or better services for less, and undercuts the price-jackers. Free market is NOT a bad thing."


Is that why the president had to bail out of the financial sector ?

The free market worked real good there.... and those are the experts in the field, unlike all the medics that fake they are managers.

Wake up man, here in Canada basics in the bigger centers make 50-60 K, socialized is superior if you are in our business.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

" Let the market go. If somebody jacks up their prices, then another company comes along, offers the same or better services for less, and undercuts the price-jackers. Free market is NOT a bad thing."


Is that why the president had to bail out of the financial sector ?

The free market worked real good there.... and those are the experts in the field, unlike all the medics that fake they are managers.

Wake up man, here in Canada basics in the bigger centers make 50-60 K, socialized is superior if you are in our business.

The bailout was NOT a free market tactic. In a truly free market, those companies would have been left to die on their own accord unless they bailed themselves out or another company helped. But no, God forbid one of those CEOs have to cancel his three week trip to cancun or give up those twice-a-day massages at the spa for a few weeks. The government bailing them out was socialistic.

I'd really like you to cite a source regarding basics making 50-60 K.

 

[jrm818]

" Let the market go. If somebody jacks up their prices, then another company comes along, offers the same or better services for less, and undercuts the price-jackers. Free market is NOT a bad thing."


Is that why the president had to bail out of the financial sector ?

The free market worked real good there.... and those are the experts in the field, unlike all the medics that fake they are managers.

Wake up man, here in Canada basics in the bigger centers make 50-60 K, socialized is superior if you are in our business.

Actually thats a good example of the failure of gov't tampering. Federal Reserve tries to manipulate the flow of money to keep credit easy to get, make everyone happy because they can live beyond their means. Result is housing price bubble, inflation, and deficit spending. Eventually the bubble bursts, housing prices start to normalize, and shocker people who were living at the extreme for thier means are now screwed as prices go up and they can't pay their debts.

It didn't' help that the government was mandating that lenders (fannie and freddie...coincidence that the government lenders went bust?) give risky subprime type loans to unqualified home-buyers, in the name of promoting homeownership for the poor....

Now our super government (bush = small government...anyone remember that??) is trying to "fix" the problem by dumping cash into the economy to try to make credit easy to get again (I mean come on...hair of the dog that bit you may be fine for hangovers...but seriously?). Its an attempt to prop up a house of cards, and it will fail because home prices (and prices of a lot of things really) have been overinflated for a while now. The market is trying to normalize, but the gov't won't let it.

Just my ametuer opinion....

by the way...what to taxes on that 60k run up there? (serious question)

 

[EMTinNEPA]

bush = small government...anyone remember that??

And now McCain is advocating the same small government ideas. Cut money to everything except defense? I guess a defense budget that makes up more than the rest of the world's defense budgets combined just isn't enough.

Neo-cons may like to appeal to the old-school conservatives and libertarians by promoting small government... what they REALLY mean is small government except when it comes to things that help them keep power.

 

[Meursault]

If patients are not informed, then they should demand to be informed. There are plenty of clinics across the country with price lists... routine check-up: $20... blood tests: $40... etc. Why couldn't hospitals do this? The problem is that if you walk up to a doctor, pull out your checkbook, and say "how much for an MRI?", they couldn't tell you.

Healthcare is not delivered in neat units (Medicare's opinion notwithstanding) with lots of time between "purchases" for patients to go around and price things. After the fact, it's possible to break things down by procedures, drugs, room and board, etc. and charge for each individually. It's not possible to tell a hypothetical patient: "Okay, we're going to admit you. You will stay 3 days, and it will cost $15,069. Here's an itemized list of the things we're going to do in the next 3 days."

Most of the really expensive areas of healthcare involve some loss of patient autonomy, and with it, any notion of functioning as a consumer.

More fundamentally, it is impossible to inform patients to the standard you want. For healthcare to be analogous to consumer goods, the "consumers" must know exactly what they want and be able to compare options. Very few people can do that.

And isn't making everybody "self-pay" a great deterrent for system abuse?

It's a great (and equally great, I've got the citation somewhere) deterrent to system use.

 

[firecoins]

Actually thats a good example of the failure of gov't tampering. Federal Reserve tries to manipulate the flow of money to keep credit easy to get, make everyone happy because they can live beyond their means. Result is housing price bubble, inflation, and deficit spending. Eventually the bubble bursts, housing prices start to normalize, and shocker people who were living at the extreme for thier means are now screwed as prices go up and they can't pay their debts.

It didn't' help that the government was mandating that lenders (fannie and freddie...coincidence that the government lenders went bust?) give risky subprime type loans to unqualified home-buyers, in the name of promoting homeownership for the poor....

Now our super government (bush = small government...anyone remember that??) is trying to "fix" the problem by dumping cash into the economy to try to make credit easy to get again (I mean come on...hair of the dog that bit you may be fine for hangovers...but seriously?). Its an attempt to prop up a house of cards, and it will fail because home prices (and prices of a lot of things really) have been overinflated for a while now. The market is trying to normalize, but the gov't won't let it.

Just my ametuer opinion....
)

Its right on.