Trooper vs. Paramedic

[Ridryder911]

Well, I have been quiet after posting to see what else will occur. This service is a neighboring EMS.

The unit was responding without lights and sirens to Prague ER on a State Highway which is very narrow and curvy. The OHP units passed as in coming towards them, but if you listen carefully the driver apologizes and describes that there was an approaching car. From sources, I have heard he did not want to leave the road way with a patient in the back, I don't blame him as it does not have a shoulder.

Yes, it was wrong on both parts. The disappointing issue is that OHP has a tradition and reputation of demonstrating professionalism. It is not until the past 5-7 years, we have seen a turn of newer troopers graduating with attitudes. I have several friends that are troop commanders and officers within OHP I usually have breakfast with them every week. I have not seen them since this incidence, but I am sure they are upset on the event as well. They have worked hard to develop a professional reputation and the experienced troopers always assisted me and provided me anything within reason on any response I needed. A great asset to EMS.

I agree with Kip on several accounts as well, I am surprised no one mentioned some very important points.

The incident that caused the initial event was minor. How many cars never pull over? True, they should had, they were wrong. I do doubt that they were the only ones though. As discussed as well, I have had troopers call me as a supervisor to complain or meet a unit at the hospital to discuss. Stopping an EMS unit while in service is opening and wanting problems.

There is rumor that there is bad blood between OHP and the EMS. I will not discuss here but one can imagine.

No trooper regarded the patient safety. Not one trooper was shown in the video asking .."What is wrong with your patient?" They realize that many times we do not transport back with l/s even with a serious patient. That itself is an issue for reprimanding. Alike what was discussed, this could had been settled at the ER. In fact, more verbal discussion occurred and continued at the ER. Enough is enough.

Simply put, they disregarded the patients safety & welfare and placed their own agenda first.

The other concern is that the trooper obviously attempted to enter the patient compartment. Maurice (the Paramedic) was still in the truck when the trooper was exclaiming .."your under arrest". As well, the trooper was pointing with his "gun hand" and then took two steps back as in demonstrating fear. The hold of placing the arm behind the back failed and was done improperly, a choke hold was placed onto a obvious unarmed medic with both of his arms at his side. Three (not one) was pointing and yelling. This is called bullying and provoking. Something OHP had prided themselves of never doing.

What will happen? Probably nothing. The county is divided between Native Americans, Blacks and Whites. Racial tension is nothing new in that area. The trooper will probably be placed in the metro/city area where he can be closely monitored and report to a commander everyday. I do look for civil suits to occur and I look for OHP to loose drastically. Unfortunately, since they just asked for a vote to prevent furloughs.

This video is assured to be placed as a training video on what NOT to do.

I do hope though that this will cause a change of what I have seen lately of OHP attitude and poor to no staging at scenes. I do wish that maybe we can have education programs together and develop strategies realizing we are all there for one reason but different jobs.

R/r 911

 

[amberdt03]

Latest update, as far as I've seen:

http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=10434913

i noticed that the medic's stories have changed a little bit with this update. but it could be that the writer changed it for them

 

[Shishkabob]

The media is already publishing the statement, which probably means it came from an official source (although I would never claim that the media is beyond being duped).

Wouldn't be the first time the media latched on to incorrect info.


And besides, the original story states that there was a convoy of cars following the ambulance. How in the heck would that witness be close enough to hear whats going on, on the side of the road, multiple car lengths back, with the clarity that she says?


My money is on it's someone that saw the video, showed up to the PD and made the statement purely off what they saw on the video.


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Rid, just because the video doesn't show it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The original video doesn't show the paramedic assaulting the Trooper, yet the prosecutor has come out and said he did.

 

[reaper]

I would guess the writer screwed up. Same way as they have them both listsed as medics, when the driver was an EMT.

 

[micsaver]

JP's post is probably on target. The cop is a tool for trying to arrest the attending paramedic, and the medic is a tool for putting up a physical fight.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

let's get an Amen in here and just MOVE ON^_^

 

[Ridryder911]

Wouldn't be the first time the media latched on to incorrect info.


And besides, the original story states that there was a convoy of cars following the ambulance. How in the heck would that witness be close enough to hear whats going on, on the side of the road, multiple car lengths back, with the clarity that she says?


My money is on it's someone that saw the video, showed up to the PD and made the statement purely off what they saw on the video.


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Rid, just because the video doesn't show it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The original video doesn't show the paramedic assaulting the Trooper, yet the prosecutor has come out and said he did.

Obviously, you don't know small towns or Paden, OK. The town has maybe 500 people and about 14 streets total and the highway runs through the middle. When I brought an EMS unit there (we started coverage for the town) nearly everyone came outside alike a parade waiving at us and came outside to talk us. So yes, it is very possible for someone to over hear the comments.

True the original video does not show Paramedic doing anything to the Trooper. Yet, what constitutes arrest to a Paramedic within his working area and the liberty of a trooper to enter the patient compartment (especially since this is a Federal vehicle as well)? It also still does not excuse the actions or why the trooper had any business in the patient compartment. I too would had probably been arrested if they attempted to enter my patient area. Alike, when I work in the ED unless the patient gives permission they have to sit and await outside to get information.

The incident did not involve the patient, therefore interrupting patient care and entering patient care area was violated. Period.

Sorry, alike I described. I work with very many of those that are the best in the world and then there are some that need to realize that they only are there to enforce the laws.

I believe everyone reading the comments are now "nitpicking". EMT/ Medic/Paramedic is synonymous around most parts. Their EMS unit actually had an EMT/driver and a Critical Care Paramedic to be truthful.

The only good is, that I believe there will be some cohesiveness afterwards. Something that may need to be taught in their well respected academy.

I know when I returned back to the field I had difficulties I never experienced prior. After discussing with some of the Troop commanders, I have never had any more problems and the working relations have been better.


R/r 911

 

[VFFforpeople]

have waited to make on post on this one. It can go either way and I wanted to see what has developed. I think they are both in the wrong, both sides have a job to do, and again both sides didn't take each side in consideration.

I think the trooper(s) may have been new, or excited. (I was not there). Maybe they should hold a training 8hour or something simple, to explain the laws of EMS and EMS in transport. (or if they do, go back over and review).

Like wise on the EMS side. (If they dont already).

I would have taken the ticket not argued it there, and took it to court after. If that would have saved a fight and blah blah, then so be it. Now we have a game of big balls being played, and what led to the tensions.

A cool head and calm understanding could have fixed this whole mess. It is what it is, more info will come out and I hope the right verdict will be cast fair and equal for all.

Again the high road could have prevent this whole mess, but then again I dont know everything that happened. That is all my opinion, I have nothing against law by any means.

 

[daedalus]

First, I doubt the authenticity of the statement.

Second, that person needs to get some English and grammar lessons.

Thirdly, that statement, if even legit, is much more subjective than objective.

I respectfully question your repeated shoot downs of all attempts to bring balance to the issue. Your right, only the dash cam will tell, however, you are not remaining objective. Like AJ said, we in EMS need to have some rights too. What if that was you and your partner?

As an aside, I have failed to pull over for numerous police going code behind me when I have been transporting. Once, I was going code as well, and the officer behind me turned his warning equipment off, and backed off until I turned. Second time, medic in back was starting an IV during a no code transport. I thought about my duty to my patient before trying to pull erratically to the right with all the other cars (you have seen how the public can react).

Never had problems.

Like Kip has said, this whole thing makes me literally nauseous. I get upset watching it, because police and EMS are supposed to be partners in service and champions for the public.

My ideal resolution would be to have a meeting with the two medics, two troopers, and some mediators, in which both sides could debrief and apologise. Than, modules should be added to the police academy and EMS education on fostering positive relationships with other emergency services, and finally, activities such as EMS vs. Police baseball games and picnics should be held to again foster positive relations between departments.

 

[GonnaBeEMT]

If the cop was going somewhere important why did he stop the ambulance? just go around the freaking ambulance. Kinda seems like the cop was looking for a reason not to go on the call he was called to do.

 

[JPINFV]

The cop completed his call and then returned to look for the ambulance.

 

[Shishkabob]

I respectfully question your repeated shoot downs of all attempts to bring balance to the issue. Your right, only the dash cam will tell, however, you are not remaining objective. Like AJ said, we in EMS need to have some rights too. What if that was you and your partner?

Sit in your car, engine on, atleast 2 car lengths back with 2 other vehicles infront of you with their engines on. One a normal car, and one a loud diesel engine, and tell me you can hear a conversation clearly, word for word, that far back with that much ambient noise minimum. Sorry, I find it hard to believe that she heard what they said in that situation.

As an aside, I have failed to pull over for numerous police going code behind me when I have been transporting. Once, I was going code as well, and the officer behind me turned his warning equipment off, and backed off until I turned. Second time, medic in back was starting an IV during a no code transport. I thought about my duty to my patient before trying to pull erratically to the right with all the other cars (you have seen how the public can react).

Never had problems.

That's all cool, but as you know, every cop is different. You won't always get a ticket if pulled over. You won't always get pulled over if you speed by a cop.

I've known medics to call police for dangerous drivers on the road.

Every situation is different, and this one culminated in to a cop making a decision that he did.

Like Kip has said, this whole thing makes me literally nauseous. I get upset watching it, because police and EMS are supposed to be partners in service and champions for the public.

Agreed, but when one disrespects the other, things tend to go down hill quick.

My ideal resolution would be to have a meeting with the two medics, two troopers, and some mediators, in which both sides could debrief and apologise.

Are you talking post-engagement, or during the traffic stop?

 

[SauceyEMT]

The fact remains that it's obvious here that many of the posters will argue for EMS whether or not they are right or wrong. Many seem to see no issues at all with anything the EMS people did. I suspect that this would remain the case in any situation where it is police vs. EMS. With that said, I have enough experience and common sense to know that it would be the same with many police officers.

Look at it like this, how many times do you see some :censored: gang banger get arrested for his 42 armed robbery, or shooting, or whatever crime you want to insert? Then shortly after, the family comes on defending the career criminal saying "oh, he's a good boy, he's trying to turn his life around." Clearly, the guy is a jerkoff, but his supporters wont hear of it.

People defend their own. EMS, cops, firefighters tend to defend their people often times without regard for the truth.

The fact is, the police, by nature being an adversarial figure, are nearly always judged harshly no matter how justified, correct, or beneficial their actions may be. And that doesnt exclude the views of EMS professionals. Many of you seem to have no use for the police.

 

[VentMedic]

Many of you seem to have no use for the police.

This thread is mild compared to a couple we've had in the past on this forum. However, it is usually the same people expressing their dislike for LEOs.

This thread is also relatively tame compared to what is being said on other EMS forums. Some of the comments are made toward LEOs by those in EMS are not good for either profession especially since they are being read and discussed on the forums of those not involved in either EMS or Law Enforcement. We are being viewed as a bunch of children that can't play well together rather than professionals.

Like Kip has said, this whole thing makes me literally nauseous. I get upset watching it, because police and EMS are supposed to be partners in service and champions for the public.

My ideal resolution would be to have a meeting with the two medics, two troopers, and some mediators, in which both sides could debrief and apologise. Than, modules should be added to the police academy and EMS education on fostering positive relationships with other emergency services, and finally, activities such as EMS vs. Police baseball games and picnics should be held to again foster positive relations between departments.

Agree.

However, I believe in this case the EMTs may already be believing they smell money from the encouragement they are getting from those in EMS to sue the arses off the OHP and LEOs. That will trump any peaceful resolution.

 

[Ridryder911]

The fact remains that it's obvious here that many of the posters will argue for EMS whether or not they are right or wrong. Many seem to see no issues at all with anything the EMS people did. I suspect that this would remain the case in any situation where it is police vs. EMS. With that said, I have enough experience and common sense to know that it would be the same with many police officers.

Look at it like this, how many times do you see some sh!thead gang banger get arrested for his 42 armed robbery, or shooting, or whatever crime you want to insert? Then shortly after, the family comes on defending the career criminal saying "oh, he's a good boy, he's trying to turn his life around." Clearly, the guy is a jerkoff, but his supporters wont hear of it.

People defend their own. EMS, cops, firefighters tend to defend their people often times without regard for the truth.

The fact is, the police, by nature being an adversarial figure, are nearly always judged harshly no matter how justified, correct, or beneficial their actions may be. And that doesnt exclude the views of EMS professionals. Many of you seem to have no use for the police.

Just await until you are out there and a LEO yells at you to move your unit or he will arrest you or they refuse to allow a HEMS to land for a scene flight or block a lane because "it might tie up traffic"... Then come back and defend them. We have already lost several medics because of poor staging and blocking of lanes.

Unarmed medic transporting a patient, sorry NO reason to even pursue or provoke and deal such unprofessionally. The trooper should be immediately fired due to his actions and embarrassment of the profession.

Alike I described there are some great ones too, unfortunately we fail to acknowledge them sometimes. Alike our profession though we need to clean out the weeds sometimes to ensure quality.

R/r 911

 

[Shishkabob]

Until said video of the medic assaulting the officer comes out.

I can't wait for his apology.

 

[Shishkabob]

The trooper should be immediately fired due to his actions and embarrassment of the profession.

R/r 911

The prosecutor has come out and said there is video of the medic assaulting the officer, and you want the cop fired? Where's the anger at the medic? Why is no one here but Vent, Saucy and I saying that the medic has ANY part to do with this?


Assaulting an officer should be a no brainer, and yet the argument persist that it's the cops fault, and the cop is the one to blame.


Using your argument, the MEDIC should be fired immediately for HIS unproffesionalism and his embarrassment of EMS.

 

[VentMedic]

Just await until you are out there and a LEO yells at you to move your unit or he will arrest you or they refuse to allow a HEMS to land for a scene flight or block a lane because "it might tie up traffic"... Then come back and defend them. We have already lost several medics because of poor staging and blocking of lanes.

Been there done that and still don't hate law enforcement professionals.

If we have a problem landing we contact the ground and ask the troopers to get us safely down and that we are putting out lives in their hands. We don't bully our way down or settle for an area that is not safe. A safe resolution and corporation from the ground can usually be reached. You've just got to communicate with the right people. Usually when there is a problem like that, the PD has been kept out of the loop and have not had a chance to properly secure the traffic which will also put your helicopter in danger. If there is something not safe for the landing area, the ground crews can take the patient to where we can safely land. Many places have designated areas for the helicopter to land and meet a ground transport truck just to ensure safety for the car/road traffic and the many members of the crews working together.

If we have difficulty with a member(s) of some profession be it Fire, EMS or PD, we see that it is quickly resolved through the proper channels before a next time happens again to keep infecting the wound between all involved.

Yes, the weeds need to be removed but EMS also needs to look at their own role and determine where they could have done things better.

I have already described the reasons why an LEO may want to pull over an ambulance. To ignor the request to stop or pull over could be putting all in the ambulance in jeopardy for a variety of reasons such as driving recklessly or paired, mechanical failure or an unsafe scene just ahead that has not been secured that the ambulance is approaching. This could be a shooting or MVC. The officer could get you off to another route quicker or safer than your dispatch. I have encountered that a few times and have again been grateful for their help and concern about our safety.

I've had to tolerate the fighting amongst EMS providers for 3 decades, there are few things an LEO can do to surprise or shock me after the examples we have had in EMS.

 

[SauceyEMT]

Just await until you are out there and a LEO yells at you to move your unit or he will arrest you or they refuse to allow a HEMS to land for a scene flight or block a lane because "it might tie up traffic"...

I've been the cop handling crash scenes with multiple EMS/Fire units on scene. This isnt foreign to me. Any cop who starts :censored: like this is a jerkoff. But, to assume, as many here seem to, that cops are all useless, power hungry, trouble makers, isnt fair.

Just as it wouldnt be fair to label all EMS workers as liberal, coddling, pussies. Apples and oranges.

My local EMS/Fire departments don't have ANY attitude that they are superior to us, and vice versa. The attitude that has been displayed by many here that they can handle anything without the need for police, is crazy. If my local EMS pro's get a call that may require police assistance, or are dispatched to a domestic disturbance, fight, crash, etc, they stage and wait for us to call them in. Thats the way it works. If some hero medic or EMT wants to run into the middle of a disturbance, because of course, they don't need no stinkin' cops, and they get hurt or killed, these same people will cry that the cops weren't doing their jobs. The same jobs that the EMS folks, naturally, didn't need us for.

 

[medic417]

I guess I'm spoiled if I want highway shut down I shut it down. I have closed an interstate for over 2 hours and only way around would have added 6 hours to the persons trip. When I hear of trouble getting scene safe I realize how little respect LE has for some of your agencies. Here if I say do it they do it. But we also work with our LE when they request things from us. We know each other and it helps the work environment tremendously.

 

[SauceyEMT]

Here if I say do it they do it. But we also work with our LE when they request things from us.

Wait...so when you say "do it, they do it." But "you work with your LE" when they have to "request things from you?"

So you issue orders to the cops, and they have to "request" things from you?

I guess I'm spoiled if I want highway shut down I shut it down. I have closed an interstate for over 2 hours and only way around would have added 6 hours to the persons trip.

In my state, EMS isn't allowed to shut the highway down, only police can control traffic. And if it takes you two hours to do your job as a medic at a crash scene, I have to wonder. Not to mention, what takes two hours aside from a major MCI or plane crash on a highway? Something that serious would be way above both of our paygrades. Besides, making someone drive 6 hours out of their way to get by the highway "you shut down" just shows poor planning, and poor deployment of resources. Not to mention, your entire post smells like a power trip to me.