To Run Hot or Not?

[CleHitez106]

Alright.

So, I work for a private ambulance company in Ohio, and we are contracted to provide first aid/transport at games for our NFL team here in town. We have 2 squads that standby in the main first aid room (like a little ER, this is where the medical staff "works" people and decide if they actually need to be sent out to the hospital....we average only about 6-8 transports per game.) Along with 2 crews that stand on the field for the players, and 1 crew that sits in the parking lot across from the stadium for the tailgaters....

The medical staff (nurses, docs, medics) that works throughout the stadium are all employed by the a big hospital here in town, and we are required to transport everybody that's not a trauma or a full arrest to their main campus, about 10 miles away.

I've done this for 2 seasons now, and everyone that i've worked with goes by what out company EMS director told us regarding transportation, which is "you run hot from the stadium with the patient, and you run hot back so that you're ready to go if it gets busy"

I never questioned this, until the last game I worked, during which me and my partner, a seasoned EMT, were returning. He was driving with the flow, and I asked him, "arent you gonna run hot back to the stadium?" to which he replied with a tirade about how dangerous that is and how it could cost someone their license should something happen...

I was kind of surprised since no one had really ever questioned it before, but he does bring up a good point.

So the question is:

Is there any way it would be legal to run hot in this situation where you don't have a patient but are on standby for a "medical" facility? Or if something did happen would you get strung up for it in court with no recourse? I am curious as to how I could find out the laws that govern this.....any thoughts are appreciated!

 

[rescue1]

Given that there are other ambulances on scene, not to mention a full emergency clinic with nurses and doctors present, I'm positive you'd be strung up in court and be found at fault for an accident.
There is no legal or medical reason to run hot all over the place because of the potential of a heavy call volume, not unless you are actually responding for a transport that's been waiting at the clinic for an available ambulance.

 

[OrlandoRMAMedic]

So the question is:

Is there any way it would be legal to run hot in this situation where you don't have a patient but are on standby for a "medical" facility? Or if something did happen would you get strung up for it in court with no recourse? I am curious as to how I could find out the laws that govern this.....any thoughts are appreciated!

Unless you were advised via radio that there was an emergent pt awaiting transport, no, there is no legal recourse. If you were to have gotten into a crash on your way back to the stadium for "stand by", a prosecutor could argue that there was no immediate life threat that you were responding to and that the use of lights and sirens were not warranted. So you were then putting the lives of all of those that were driving at risk, as well as your own life and your partner. Our system has recently started responding non-emergency to EMD BLS calls for this exact reason. We have the option of upgrading if we believe that we cannot make it to the scene within 15 minutes by going with the flow of traffic, or the first due engine upgrades the call to ALS, which is rare.

NOW, the only time I have used my lights and sirens to go to the local arena/ stadium for stand by (no patient needing transport) is once I am within the barricaded area (they block off about a 5 block radius around them). And then it is just a "blurp" of the siren and/ or horn to alert those oblivious people that there is this huge vehicle getting ready to encroach on their personal space and they may want to move a little ways to the side of the roadway.

 

[JPINFV]

Without knowing Ohio law/vehicle code, this practice would be completely unsupported by the California Vehicle Code since it isn't done 'in response to an emergency call or rescue operations.'

 

[Shishkabob]

Personally? It's friggin retarded to do that, especially with the caveat of "ALWAYS RUN HOT!!!", and your boss is an imbecile.



Otherwise? Well... if Ohio is an at-will state, he could technically fire you for not.... soo.... sucks to be you.

 

[Veneficus]

Do you work for a new company in town?

Because from your name it is not too hard for us from the area to figure out where you are.

I think it is a question of education and assumption.

Most providers, like doctors, who are not familiar with the risks associated with running hot, as well as absolutely minimal time it saves, seem to think that it really makes a difference, when in fact it does not.

I also know that most medical directors in the area for privates will basically sign off on anything or the company will find a new medical director that afternoon.

The EMT is correct.

It is an absolute worthless gamble.

You will not lose your license for running hot, but you certainly will if you are cited and subsequently found guilty of a felony traffic offense. (like vehicular homocide)

Every private in the area knows both medics and basics there are a dime a dozen, and none of them are reputable employers. They will do absolutely anything for a dollar.

They will drop you like a stone the minute there is trouble.

While I can't tell you what to do, I will tell you to be smart, make good decisions based on your circumstances and not simply what you are "told" by somebody who obviously doesn't know :censored::censored::censored::censored: about the risk/benefit involved.

It is really better to move out of that area than work for the privates in it.

I will also add, that if you are driving on W 3rd and through the central business district to get to or from CCF, running hot through there is an ambulance vs. pedestrian waiting to happen.

If you are taking Rt. 2 to MLK, the freeway exit and the 5 way intersection at the top of the hill to Wade Park is another disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Sandog]

Must be cool to see all the NFL games. I would run hot just so I would not miss the end of the game. Okay, I am just kidding.:rofl:

 

[exodus]

I will also add, that if you are driving on W 3rd and through the central business district to get to or from CCF, running hot through there is an ambulance vs. pedestrian waiting to happen.

If you are taking Rt. 2 to MLK, the freeway exit and the 5 way intersection at the top of the hill to Wade Park is another disaster waiting to happen.

Veh + Ped is 100% preventable and there are no excuses for that one other than dumbass inattentitiveness.

 

[CleHitez106]

Wow. thanks for all the input guys... That was like throwing a steak in a lion pit. :lol:

for the record, im usually not the one driving. Some people just like to run hot whenever possible... now that i think about it, there are times when they will say "get back to the stadium as soon as possible we have more calls that are going out" perhaps some people got in the habit of just running hot back to the stadium no matter what.

Working for a private you are pressured to do a lot of things that seemingly make no sense....like going to a nursing home for a CC of chest pain that is an hour and a half away...Hell one of our sqauds got a call for a full arrest in a nursing home a couple weeks ago and the SNF ACCEPTED A 30 MINUTE ETA....:blink: you give someone an ETA like that and hope they will pull their heads out of their *** and call 911, i guess not....

like i said i never questioned it when i started cuz when everyone else does it, it seems to make sense, and you just wanna make a living and go home...right?

I definetly don't plan on making a career out of working for a private, but for now between that and a part time fire job, its payin the bills and then some, and I have yet to have any real problems.

Probly won't be working the games next season tho...

 

[Veneficus]

Veh + Ped is 100% preventable and there are no excuses for that one other than dumbass inattentitiveness.

There is no excuse for it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[Ewok Jerky]

running "code3" unnecessarily is dangerous and I would be reluctant to do so. as far as the legality I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea. maybe drive normal till your close enough to the site that someone might notice then light up?

 

[Sandog]

There is no excuse for it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Was your reply made to a reply in this thread?

 

[Veneficus]

Was your reply made to a reply in this thread?

yes, to the exodus post i quoted

 

[EMSLaw]

Its an invitation for a lawsuit. Though, then again, any time you turn on your lights, you should realize that you're taking on a lot of responsibility should things go wrong.

If they need that rapid a turn-around from units going so far away, maybe they need to station an extra transport unit or two at the stadium.

 

[DrParasite]

I believe FDNY used to go lights and sirens when getting back to the firehouse, because while they were on a job, they were leaving their first due unprotected. as such, they wanted to hurry back to ensure their area had proper coverage.

That all being said, there is NO reason to use L&S just to hurry back on the chance that you will have a patient. if you actually had a patient, that's a little better, but still uncool.

the agency's lack of proper staffing does not provide a valid reason for doing illegal tactics to compensate.

and if this in the policy, make sure you get it in writing, so when you do crash, you can say you were only following company policy, so they should sue the company not you as the individual.

 

[ricardo007]

I never run hot.

 

[saskvolunteer]

I never run hot.

Cool story bro.

 

[the_negro_puppy]

We rarely do- only if the patient is transport critical which is pretty much never.

It makes no differences- if you are on your feet and doing stuff with the patient the person driving has to be very careful with accelerating and cornering.

 

[CleHitez106]

I believe FDNY used to go lights and sirens when getting back to the firehouse, because while they were on a job, they were leaving their first due unprotected. as such, they wanted to hurry back to ensure their area had proper coverage.

That all being said, there is NO reason to use L&S just to hurry back on the chance that you will have a patient. if you actually had a patient, that's a little better, but still uncool.

the agency's lack of proper staffing does not provide a valid reason for doing illegal tactics to compensate.

and if this in the policy, make sure you get it in writing, so when you do crash, you can say you were only following company policy, so they should sue the company not you as the individual.

Thank you for an informative and helpful comment.

There is no protocol or guideline whatsoever for when we should and shouldn't run hot. I would challenge anyone that works for a private to find/quote such a protocol...the only thing said about it to us at my service was that little defensive driving video they showed us during orientation....besides that its more or less a free for all haha

Some people have the attitude of "running hot for a private ambulance is stupid no matter what the call" others have the attitude of "well that SOB or Altered MS could be anything...." Ive been at this for 2 years, and ive seen both sides of the coin... sometimes you get there and the SOB is really just mild hypoxia...94% on 3 lpm for the last 4 hours...other times its severe CHF...Ive had an altered mental that when we got there the lady was barley concious, pulse of 20...Ive had to argue with some people to light up for chest pain....granted, these are the exceptions, not the rules...

Where do you draw the line? ensure the safety of those on the road (which you can only do so much of anyway, true emergency or not) or do you expedite response and transport based on an overall lack of competent care in certain facilities?

Who has more responsibility....the EMT driving, or the Medic writing the call that is ultimatley responsible for the pt.'s overall wellfare...?

theirin lies my dillemma, I don't think the issue is so black and white..

 

[Akulahawk]

No matter whether you're driving "hot" or not... always drive with due regard for the safety of others. Drive like if you get into a crash, it's always going to be your fault, even if it technically/legally isn't. You'd be amazed how very few times you even come close to putting a scratch on the ambulance.

If the Stadium and the Hospital are functioning as a closed medical system and the person acting as the Medical Director orders you to always run hot to and from, the liability for any mishaps falls on multiple hands. Just make sure that the order is in writing... that would bring some very deep pockets into the suit.

Closed medical systems have their own level of general weirdness.

Oh, and given my own particular education, the field ambulance is exactly where I'd want to be and where I'd be best utilized - but that'd be a whole different thread.