The Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act

[ffemt8978]

The Gov't passed the healthcare reform, so it would appear that state's rights are not a consideration based on past practices.

They passed it, but that doesn't mean much until the court cases are settled. But let's not threadjack this topic to discuss that one.

 

[grich242]

many states still do not honor collective bargaining. the problem comes when we pd/fd/ems have no recourse,and in tough times one of the first places politicians look to cut money is public safety.which in sometimes may be necessary, but in short it gives us the right to meet and agree on a contract and forces both parties to stick to their agreement.

 

[46Young]

Never been in a union. Never felt slighted for it. However all I've seen unions do is screw over people with workplace action. Ask any of the grocery store workers in Southern California how their strikes in the mid-2000's went. Of course, I'm also not a slug who requires mommy and daddy union to protect me. I do my work. I do it well. I get rewarded for it. That's something the union slugs don't understand, that merit is more important than time.

Our promotional process is merit based. Time in grade is a small fraction of the final score, maybe 5%, and tops out after eight years in grade. Education alone can be from 5-25% depending on the rank. We can't strike. There will be a third party to arbitrate. This bill gived s the power to negotiate work issues, not just accept whatever management decides and then quit if it's not satisfactory. I perfer to change the situation to my benefit instead.

 

[JPINFV]

The employee's past history is exactly why we have progressive discipline. Late once, verbal warning. Twice, written. Third, three days of LWOP. Fourth, termination. Without equal discipline, employee A can be written up for uniform non compliance, and employee B just an informal warning. Employee A leaves the rig dirty and low on fuel, gets one day LWOP. Employee B gets a warning. We all know certain individuals that have gotten on management's bad side, and the supervisors look for anything and everything to write the employee up, to create a paper trail, things they wouldn't bother anyone else for. Progressive discipline ensures that all employees are treated equally, and not by favoritism. If you've messed up twice in the past, the next one's a step three. Of course, some offenses go right to a step two, three, or four.

So I should get a verbal order/written/suspended/termination for every offense (within reason, not all infractions themselves are created equal). If I have a history of misconduct, I should get a verbal warning first just because I haven't broken that specific rule first? What if employee B has no real discipline history and employee A has a history of tardiness, a lackadaisical attitude, and never takes initiative to do anything? Sure, this might be a first offense for this specific rule, but are you going to argue that the employees are the same?

Regarding hard workers, I've seen many a hard worker get passed over for promotion, or been subject to the wrong end of favoritism, as they weren't in the right click. It must be a horrible feeling to devote many years to a dept, never to be promoted, just because you may have rubbed someone the wrong way, or because you didn't kiss up enough to the right people.

I'll take having to deal with a slug or two if it means I won't have to deal with favoritism, have job security, and will participate in a merit based promotional process, and be assigned a ranking on the list after testing. The grading practices are transparent. You can't just give your brother in law a high score and stick them at number three or four out of 50 to get them the promotion.

Because tests tell the full story of an individual? Being able to put the correct multiple choice answer down (or even short essay answer) and being able to actually implement it is two very. Someone who gets promoted because of a test, but someone who no one agrees to follow will never be a true leader.

 

[46Young]

They passed it, but that doesn't mean much until the court cases are settled. But let's not threadjack this topic to discuss that one.

My bad.

You're a volunteer, right? Will this bill affect volunteer participationat your dept? This is the one part of the bill that I disagree with. Regarding IAFF locals, they don't want members to volunteer at other depts that have IAFF locals. 100% volunteer depts and those not in the same local are OK. I'm suprised no one has chosen to discuss the volunteer portion of the bill as of yet.

 

[JPINFV]

I perfer to change the situation to my benefit instead.

Yet how many unionized workers look at management as the enemy? Best way to fully understand the situation is to get into management and change it from within. Of course then the solution isn't going to be as clear cut as "more money."

 

[46Young]

Are you trying to claim that unions are the only way to get things to change?

Not the only way, but it is an effective way. It works for the IAFF. Can't deny that. And many locals, such as mine, are in right to work states. We don't even have collective bargaining yet, and we make things happen. Pure political connections and effective lobbying.

 

[46Young]

Yet how many unionized workers look at management as the enemy? Best way to fully understand the situation is to get into management and change it from within. Of course then the solution isn't going to be as clear cut as "more money."

Hard to do when the EMS career ladder is severely limited.

I didn't realize how adveserial management could be until I worked in Charleston SC. That was enough to form my attitude towards admin. I understand financial constraints and such, but things like copious forced OT, favoritism in discipline and promotions, punitive schedule changes, OT going to the scheduling manager's buddies first, need to be stopped.

 

[ffemt8978]

many states still do not honor collective bargaining. the problem comes when we pd/fd/ems have no recourse,and in tough times one of the first places politicians look to cut money is public safety.which in sometimes may be necessary, but in short it gives us the right to meet and agree on a contract and forces both parties to stick to their agreement.

If you have a collective bargaining agreement, your methods of recourse should be spelled out in that document. In addition. the NLRB has the authority to enforce such agreements if either party is not upholding their end. So this law would essentially give you what you already have, with an added layer of federal involvement.

You state that in tough economic times, politicians look to cut money from public safety first. I'm not going to dispute this claim, but I am going to ask that you look at it from a different perspective.

Your collective bargaining agreement costs money...plain and simple. That cost is either the result of cost of living increases, minimum staffing levels, or benefits. So in order to meet these costs, politicians are faced with a choice. They can either cut other programs like education, road maintenance, and other programs or they can raise taxes.

Either one of these options can have serious consequences for the community that employs the public safety people. High taxes cause businesses to relocate, and people to move to follow the work. That means you have a smaller tax base to work from to bring in tax money. Cutting other programs can have a similar effect in the long term.

All of this in a time when the people of your community don't know if they'll have a job when the wake up in the morning because they don't have a federal law mandating that their employer must have a collective bargaining agreement with them.

I know I've said this before on this forum, but I'll say it again. I challenge anyone here to name one program that the federal government has been involved in that met it's objectives without becoming a self perpetuating bureaucracy and was a drain on the taxpayers.

 

[ffemt8978]

My bad.

You're a volunteer, right? Will this bill affect volunteer participationat your dept? This is the one part of the bill that I disagree with. Regarding IAFF locals, they don't want members to volunteer at other depts that have IAFF locals. 100% volunteer depts and those not in the same local are OK. I'm suprised no one has chosen to discuss the volunteer portion of the bill as of yet.

Yes, I am a vollie, but this bill won't affect us because we don't get paid. Kinda hard to have collective bargaining if you don't get paid.

But my community would be exempt from this law based upon the section I posted earlier. We have 4 full time police officers in the city PD. The fire district is a separate political entity (board members are elected by the public) with 2 full time employees. So even if they combined the two entities, there is not enough employees to meet the minimum requirements. Not to mention that our district has a population of about 2500 people.

 

[46Young]

So I should get a verbal order/written/suspended/termination for every offense (within reason, not all infractions themselves are created equal). If I have a history of misconduct, I should get a verbal warning first just because I haven't broken that specific rule first? What if employee B has no real discipline history and employee A has a history of tardiness, a lackadaisical attitude, and never takes initiative to do anything? Sure, this might be a first offense for this specific rule, but are you going to argue that the employees are the same?



Because tests tell the full story of an individual? Being able to put the correct multiple choice answer down (or even short essay answer) and being able to actually implement it is two very. Someone who gets promoted because of a test, but someone who no one agrees to follow will never be a true leader.

Progressive discipline isn't perfect, but it prevents favoritism. I don't know what happens if a member has discipline in several different areas. I do know that we've fired about 20 or so people in the two + years I've been here. If you're getting a step one, it's usually something minor. Some things go right to a three or a four. If you have several items in your file, you can be summoned to the Fire Chief's office for a possible termination. The union will represent you, but if you're a screwup in several different areas, then have a big issue, like sexual harrassment, conduct unbecoming, and it's well documented, then it's a valid termination. I've seen it happen a few times. It's a safe place to work, but you can get canned if you don't act right.

Oral boards, practical tests when applicable, related degrees, citations and discipline offenses all count in forming the final score. It's not a perfect system, but I can't tink of a better system at the present that can prevent favoritism in promotion. I've seen enough good ole boy promotions to prefer this method instead.

 

[46Young]

Yes, I am a vollie, but this bill won't affect us because we don't get paid. Kinda hard to have collective bargaining if you don't get paid.

But my community would be exempt from this law based upon the section I posted earlier. We have 4 full time police officers in the city PD. The fire district is a separate political entity (board members are elected by the public) with 2 full time employees. So even if they combined the two entities, there is not enough employees to meet the minimum requirements. Not to mention that our district has a population of about 2500 people.

I understand. I was asking about professional FF's and or EMS that volunteer at your dept.

 

[DrParasite]

The way I read it, private companies would not be affected. The law is for municipal police, fire and ems only.

not to get into a battle of words but

The Public Safety Empoyer-Employee Cooperation Act - H.R. 413 would require all state and local governments to engage in collective bargaining with their police, fire, and EMS personnel.

You are making the assumption that it is only municipal personnel. Many places outsource their municipal EMS to a private company, a hospital based EMS system, or a volunteer non-profit agency that is not part of the town government (despite having the town in the agency name). So even though they aren't gov't employees, they are still the municipality's EMS system. I know of a few that even have a state-based system running the EMS system. Some even outsource the FD. So it would all depend on how the court interpret the law.

the agency I work for has all field personnel in one union, the supervisors in a different union, and I like it. my former agency had no union; whatever management decided to do (adjust pay, adjust schedules, promote/transfer employees, arbitrary discipline, etc) we had to take it. If we didn't like it, we had to find another job. At least now someone can stand up to management and say "you can't do that, it's unfair to the employee" without having to worry about losing your job. My old place (where I am still a per diem employee), management does what they want, and no one stands up for the field personnel. If there was a union, they would at least have to think twice if they try to screw with us. And we could have a stronger voice, and other options besides BOATIUTA.

Do unions raise costs? yep. Do they provide for better salary rates for employees? I tend to think so. So instead of being forced to work OT, or three jobs, an EMS provider (of any level) can survive just working one job, for 40 hours a week, and live comfortably. and I don't think that is too unreasonable of a request (esp for agencies that bust their *** for 12 straight hours during a shift).

 

[grich242]

Yes we already have it here in this state and its more than what the federal bill provides. It is however very important for states who do not have it thats why its gone to a federal level. As for working well with management we have a good relationship here with the city. Sadly this is not the same everywhere, and you already know that common sense is not all that common. So what happens when management is not willing to work with you ? thats the question its not about wages and benefits, how about when the chief (a position usually appointed by the mayor) begins to make decisions effecting the safety of operations? how do you fix that without collective bargaining? what happens when you are left with no recourse? How about when the chief employs an incident command system that has been proven unsafe time and again but still dosent feel he needs to change the way we fight fires, and it results in injury or death? How about when the mayor is corrupt enough to wind up in prison after appointing several high school football friends to "management" positions? how do you work your way up through a corrupt system? just like full time departments are not right for every city collective bargaining may not be needed in every municipality, but when it is, it's essential. Its a lot less about wages and benefits than most realize and yes it costs money but what dosen"t?

 

[JPINFV]

Grich. I can go the opposite to. What do you call a union who fights against drug screening after two LODDs where intoxicating agents were found during autopsy?

 

[Veneficus]

Grich. I can go the opposite to. What do you call a union who fights against drug screening after two LODDs where intoxicating agents were found during autopsy?

Or how do you possibly get promoted when you have more qualifcations than any other member of the department but not seniority?

How do you fire members who don't meet the quality standards and drag the reputation of your service through the mud?

 

[atropine]

This sounds like an excellent law, of cours it only benifits specific areas of the country. While the county I work in uses both private and fire-based ems, I don't think the private guys would be impacted by this law at all.

 

[adamjh3]

Regarding hard workers, I've seen many a hard worker get passed over for promotion, or been subject to the wrong end of favoritism, as they weren't in the right click. It must be a horrible feeling to devote many years to a dept, never to be promoted, just because you may have rubbed someone the wrong way, or because you didn't kiss up enough to the right people.

Having a union job isn't any different. I worked in a unionized grocery store for three years. I was late once when I pulled over and puked on the side of the road on my way to work and I missed two days, the day of and the day after my grandfather died. As an example of how hard I worked, I was running two departments at 100% in a relatively busy store. At the same time while bringing in better sales numbers than the last two department managers. What happened at that job? The store manager didn't like me, so he'd find tiny things to write me up for, which eventually ended up to me being told I was going to be terminated, but they were going to be "nice" and let me voluntarily quit.

Thanks UFCW.

 

[adamjh3]

Progressive discipline isn't perfect, but it prevents favoritism. I don't know what happens if a member has discipline in several different areas. I do know that we've fired about 20 or so people in the two + years I've been here. If you're getting a step one, it's usually something minor. Some things go right to a three or a four. If you have several items in your file, you can be summoned to the Fire Chief's office for a possible termination. The union will represent you, but if you're a screwup in several different areas, then have a big issue, like sexual harrassment, conduct unbecoming, and it's well documented, then it's a valid termination. I've seen it happen a few times. It's a safe place to work, but you can get canned if you don't act right.

Oral boards, practical tests when applicable, related degrees, citations and discipline offenses all count in forming the final score. It's not a perfect system, but I can't tink of a better system at the present that can prevent favoritism in promotion. I've seen enough good ole boy promotions to prefer this method instead.

It does not prevent favoritism. The Supervisor/Manager can say hey, I like you, so I'm not going to write you up. They can also say hey, I don't like you, so I'm going to nit pick you and find stupid stuff to write you up for that no one else gets written up for.

 

[akflightmedic]

Having a union job isn't any different. I worked in a unionized grocery store for three years. I was late once when I pulled over and puked on the side of the road on my way to work and I missed two days, the day of and the day after my grandfather died. As an example of how hard I worked, I was running two departments at 100% in a relatively busy store. At the same time while bringing in better sales numbers than the last two department managers. What happened at that job? The store manager didn't like me, so he'd find tiny things to write me up for, which eventually ended up to me being told I was going to be terminated, but they were going to be "nice" and let me voluntarily quit.

Thanks UFCW.

Never take a resignation over a termination.

First, you are not entitled to any compensation benefits if you quit. This is why they always intimidate you and mention permanent record BS to try and make you quit so they have no legal obligation to pay for you once you are gone.

If you quit, they can still tell references you are not eligible for rehire and say it in a tone to imply you sucked and still be within the letter of the law. They will screw you as long as that manager is there.

Second, if someone has enough reason to fire me...then by all means...Fire Me! Believe it or not, managers have a hard time firing people and they use all kinds of incorrect terminology and from legal perspective, they often say things during the termination process that could bite them in the butt later. When you make it easy by quitting, you remove so much liability and responsibility from the employer and what do you get to show for your kindness act...that's rigth...Nothing!

So always make them fire you.

Same thing police do when they say "if you do not tell us, we can haul you downtown and question you there" or "we will get a warrant"....well if you got that much info, then do it. Otherwise you are not getting anything free or easy.