the 100% directionless thread

[Shishkabob]

The job of the police is not to meet out lessons. This is not Judge Dread, the police are not judge, jury, executioner in a free country.

You as an EMS provider should know you don't always have the luxury of time nor forethought in the field. Sometimes decisions just have to be made on the spot.


Especially when that includes being in the middle of a fist fight with someone who may or may not want to kill you.

 

[usafmedic45]

So the DA is lying about what the audio recording and video cameras captured? After all, what reason do the suspects (police officers) have to lie?

Or skewing it. I can spin stuff I have heard you say to make you look like a total psycho if I should so choose even though a lot of it was entirely innocent and simply the way we talk.

Until those tapes are released (if they are released) we will not be able to adequately judge what really happened. I find it funny that you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a suspect but not to our own colleagues. The burden of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim and it hasn't been met thus far so far as I am concerned. All that came out was a bunch of supposition and hearsay. Let's give our brothers in blue the benefit of the doubt until definitively proven otherwise.

 

[JPINFV]

If you resist them trying to do their job, sometimes they have to be. Dealing with criminals is a lot like the movie Roadhouse: Be nice until it's time not to be nice.

Then, when the police step out of bounds, such as telling a suspect who is relatively complying with orders, that his "fists are getting ready to f*** you up," and by crossing the line to making a declaration of intent to dole out undue violence and use undue force, the lessons met out to them needs to be severe.

Once again, citizens have every right to defend themselves against unreasonable and undue force. That right includes the right to use deadly force if need be.

 

[Sasha]

wtf good is online banking when you log on and "The requested service is temporarily unavailable. Please try later." for three friggin days.

 

[JPINFV]

You as an EMS provider should know you don't always have the luxury of time nor forethought in the field. Sometimes decisions just have to be made on the spot.

I am a citizen of this country, and the police do not have the luxury of trampling on our rights to make their job easier. This includes the protection under the law from suffering undue force at the hands of the police. The police do not get the luxury of a do over, nor do they have the luxury of saying "opps, my bad" when their actions needlessly escalate the situation.

Especially when that includes being in the middle of a fist fight with someone who may or may not want to kill you.

There is no evidence that Kelly Thomas threw any punches.

There is no evidence that the officers feared for their lives.

If the officers feared for their lives, why was Kelly Thomas never patted down for weapons ("Terry search")?

Why does the Ramos' s tactical mistakes, if he truly feared for his life, justify the death of Thomas?

Is it more likely that a veteran officer feared for his life, but made several basic tactical mistakes in handling the situation, or that the veteran officer never actually feared for his life?

 

[Shishkabob]

I honestly cannot put it any better than Paul Harvey:

"He must be able to whip two men twice his size and half his age without damaging his uniform, and without being brutal. If you hit him, he's a coward, if he hits you, he's a bully."




[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgrjuyn5e1k&feature=mh_lolz&list=FLon5exSp77IvoJTqVL8ZCNA[/youtube]

 

[usafmedic45]

such as telling a suspect who is relatively complying with orders

To paraphrase my first sergeant, "You either are doing what I tell you to do or you are not. The first will get you a beer at the end of the day. The second will get you my size 13 boot up your ***. Now which is it?". There's no such thing as relatively complying with a direct order especially from someone with a gun, taser, baton, handcuffs, pepper spray and a trained attack dog a radio call away.

that his "fists are getting ready to f*** you up," and by crossing the line to making a declaration of intent to dole out undue violence and use undue force, the lessons met out to them needs to be severe.

I've told plenty of people to :censored::censored::censored::censored: down, shut up or I was going to kick their teeth down their throat. I've only had to resort to violence a handful of times. Telling someone you're going to :censored::censored::censored::censored: them up and actually doing it are two different things. It's just a form of motivation this guy's addled brain couldn't comprehend. That's not the officer's fault that the guy decided to taunt and provoke him.

Once again, citizens have every right to defend themselves against unreasonable and undue force.

But we have indications that he provoked the officer and was resisting by the DA's own admissions. I can't say I don't believe the guy didn't deserve a thumping. It just got a tad bit out of hand. Death in custody is not all that uncommon with restrained subjects and this isn't anything that makes the hair go up on the back of my neck as terribly wrong. However, it may have to do something with the game of social triage I tend to perform as I deal with people and situations.

 

[JPINFV]

Until those tapes are released (if they are released) we will not be able to adequately judge what really happened. I find it funny that you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a suspect but not to our own colleagues. The burden of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim and it hasn't been met thus far so far as I am concerned. All that came out was a bunch of supposition and hearsay. Let's give our brothers in blue the benefit of the doubt until definitively proven otherwise.

I find it hard that the justification regarding an action that resulted in a victim looking like the following, and ultimately resulting in his death, is somehow not extraordinary.

 

[usafmedic45]

The police do not get the luxury of a do over, nor do they have the luxury of saying "opps, my bad" when their actions needlessly escalate the situation.

Why should the criminal get the opportunity for a do over? The life of a cop is much more valuable than that of a schizophrenic in terms of what they take versus give to society.

 

[usafmedic45]

Eh. Do what the cops tell you, keep your hands where they can see them and be respectful. I've dealt with (in a professional capacity) some really rotten cops in my day (google "Dave Bisard") and never had a problem.

 

[JPINFV]

To paraphrase my first sergeant, "You either are doing what I tell you to do or you are not. The first will get you a beer at the end of the day. The second will get you my size 13 boot up your ***. Now which is it?". There's no such thing as relatively complying with a direct order especially from someone with a gun, taser, baton, handcuffs, pepper spray and a trained attack dog a radio call away.

So, taking it to a logical extreme, if the police beat up a retarded kid because the retarded kid isn't complying, then it's fully justifiable? When dealing with a person who is known to have a mental illness, you can't expect the same level of compliance as someone who doesn't have a mental illness.

I've told plenty of people to :censored::censored::censored::censored: down, shut up or I was going to kick their teeth down their throat. I've only had to resort to violence a handful of times. Telling someone you're going to :censored::censored::censored::censored: them up and actually doing it are two different things. It's just a form of motivation this guy's addled brain couldn't comprehend. That's not the officer's fault that the guy decided to taunt and provoke him.

So I should be able to walk up to a police officer and tell him I'm going to kick his teeth in. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. It is completely the fault of the officer that he ultimately engaged in force needlessly, regardless of any taunting. They're police officers, not school yard bullies.

But we have indications that he provoked the officer and was resisting by the DA's own admissions. I can't say I don't believe the guy didn't deserve a thumping. It just got a tad bit out of hand. Death in custody is not all that uncommon with restrained subjects and this isn't anything that makes the hair go up on the back of my neck as terribly wrong. However, it may have to do something with the game of social triage I tend to perform as I deal with people and situations.

So, again, the police get a blank check when it comes to force?

 

[JPINFV]

Why should the criminal get the opportunity for a do over? The life of a cop is much more valuable than that of a schizophrenic in terms of what they take versus give to society.

I'm sorry you feel that being schizophrenic is worthy of being beaten to death by the police.

 

[JPINFV]

For those siding with the police, does the fact that the police didn't even put the officers involved on administrative leave until almost a month afterwards (when it finally hit the media) and that, strangely enough, the chief is "out on disability" all of a sudden not smell rotten? Isn't it strange that the officers got to write their report while watching the video, something that the other witnesses didn't have a chance to do?

Something smells rotten, and it's not the dead homeless schizophrenic dude.

 

[usafmedic45]

So, taking it to a logical extreme, if the police beat up a retarded kid because the retarded kid isn't complying, then it's fully justifiable?

Depends. How big is the retarded kid? As someone who's been thrown across the room by an autistic with enough force to dent the wall, I tend to have little empathy for the idea of someone being given free reign simply because they are defective. Even an elephant- which is smarter than a lot of the people of both the retarded and criminal ilk- can expect a swift end at the end of high-power rifle once it becomes violent.

It is completely the fault of the officer that he ultimately engaged in force needlessly,

We don't know that it was needless. We don't know what really happened. The burden of proof is with the folks making the outlandish claim which is that the schizo was more stable than the cops.

So I should be able to walk up to a police officer and tell him I'm going to kick his teeth in. What's good for the goose is good for the gander

Yeah, but my point was that it's really :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing stupid to do that to someone who is likely bigger, stronger and better armed than you. You could do it but you should also expect to get your face bounced off the ground at least once regardless of what the bigger, stronger and better armed dude gets paid for. Isn't freedom grand?

 

[Gray]

So if 2 people jump and beat a person to death, and 4 friends of theirs stand there they would be charged with accessory, 4 cops do it and they are let go?

My concerns that more and more police departments have become militant in nature and course, have become a reality. When a Citizen of the United States is treated in such a manner, you should be worried. For if 1 link in freedom is broken, more shall follow.

They had every right to use the correct level of force to bring the suspect in. The Police are not judge, jury and executioner.

 

[usafmedic45]

For those siding with the police, does the fact that the police didn't even put the officers involved on administrative leave until almost a month afterwards (when it finally hit the media) and that, strangely enough, the chief is "out on disability" all of a sudden not smell rotten?

Not really. If you're looking for a conspiracy at the hands of the police, it looks fishy but if you look at it the other way, it tends to read just like the city government went looking for scapegoats to minimize the massive lawsuit that will no doubt result from all of this.

I'm sorry you feel that being schizophrenic is worthy of being beaten to death by the police.

Never said that....I just said that all other things being equal I'm going to save the cop's *** first. It was a statement of triage, nothing more and nothing less.

Something smells rotten, and it's not the dead homeless schizophrenic dude.

Must have had a good embalmer then. Most of them smell better after embalming anyhow.

 

[JPINFV]

Depends. How big is the retarded kid? As someone who's been thrown across the room by an autistic with enough force to dent the wall, I tend to have little empathy for the idea of someone being given free reign simply because they are defective. Even an elephant- which is smarter than a lot of the people of both the retarded and criminal ilk- can expect a swift end at the end of high-power rifle once it becomes violent.

Elephant!=Human?

Yes, the 130 lb schizophrenic homeless dude is so going to throw the police officer against a wall.

We don't know that it was needless. We don't know what really happened. The burden of proof is with the folks making the outlandish claim which is that the schizo was more stable than the cops.

So the DA, who's seen the video evidence, heard the police audio recordings, and has seen the corner's report is making an outlandish claim?

Yeah, but my point was that it's really :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing stupid to do that to someone who is likely bigger, stronger and better armed than you. You could do it but you should also expect to get your face bounced off the ground at least once regardless of what the bigger, stronger and better armed dude gets paid for. Isn't freedom grand?

I love how the police, apparently, haven't evolved from a school yard bully, and you're fine with that.

 

[usafmedic45]

4 friends of theirs stand there they would be charged with accessory

'

It takes a little more than being a witness to be charged as an accessory in most jurisdictions.

When a Citizen of the United States is treated in such a manner, you should be worried. For if 1 link in freedom is broken, more shall follow.

Which is why I really like my passport. If this place gets too :censored::censored::censored::censored:ed up, I'll just bail. Contrary to what we are brainwashed to believe this place isn't that much better (and never really has been) than most of the rest of the First World.

 

[usafmedic45]

Yes, the 130 lb schizophrenic homeless dude is so going to throw the police officer against a wall.

I was 180 lbs footballer and got thrown by a 120 lb autistic because I didn't just take his *** down when I should have because I was trying to be nice. Size doesn't mean crap in a fight especially if someone has a reduced capacity for pain sensation or is on G-d only knows what sort of recreational pharmaceuticals. Due to the delay in autopsy, we'll likely never know what he was actually on, if anything.

 

[usafmedic45]

I love how the police, apparently, haven't evolved from a school yard bully, and you're fine with that.

No, I was just taught not to cause problems and to be polite. I've dealt with bullies and that approach doesn't work. Amazingly however it does work with the police so I guess there is a little more complicated cladistics at play here than you're assuming. I would expect such circular reasoning and assumptions from the likes of someone with minimal background in science who lets their emotions cloud their judgment. I don't expect it from someone with your level of intelligence.