suicide with a gun, what woudl you do

EMSDude54343

EMSDude54343

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A discussion was started the other day after we took a suicide attempt with a handgun, to the head. The pt lived out in the boonies and was a 20 min response (give or take). Pt was an adult male, Agonal resp, unconscious. Handgun lying next to the pt.
The closest Sheriff deputy was 15 min out behind the medic crew. Family was on scene with the pt, witnessed the incident.
The medics decided to stage for law, which I don’t hold against them, crew discretion.
But I know personally that I am comfortable and knowledgeable to secure the gun out of the way to be able to treat the pt and would enter the scene since the deputy had such a long ETA.
What is everyone opinions’ on similar situations?
 
Situation dependent. I usually go with my gut. My gut is usually right. If something doesn't feel right, I'm not going to play hero.
 
Been there done that.

Except LE was there first each time.

Life over evidence. Are you sure the pt was the (self)shooter?(Safety issue).

Let me guess, turned pt over on back, airway went to hell, pt finished expiring.

They can eliminate your traces from the scene, but not re-position the firearm, casings, blood and cranial matter, etc.
 
EMSDude54343 said:
A discussion was started the other day after we took a suicide attempt with a handgun, to the head. The pt lived out in the boonies and was a 20 min response (give or take). Pt was an adult male, Agonal resp, unconscious. Handgun lying next to the pt.
The closest Sheriff deputy was 15 min out behind the medic crew. Family was on scene with the pt, witnessed the incident.
The medics decided to stage for law, which I don’t hold against them, crew discretion.
But I know personally that I am comfortable and knowledgeable to secure the gun out of the way to be able to treat the pt and would enter the scene since the deputy had such a long ETA.
What is everyone opinions’ on similar situations?
Click to expand...

Question: how do you know that this was an attempted suicide verse an attempted homicide? Based on what the dispatch told you?

edt: mycrofft beat me.
 
silver said:
Question: how do you know that this was an attempted suicide verse an attempted homicide?
Click to expand...

Isn't a suicide simply a one man homicide?
 
Is not homicide simply killing a human, which would make suicide a sub-category of homicide?
 
Need more info. Did they walk in see the guy lying there with the gun next to him and go back out to stage, that would be kind of silly. On the other hand if all the info they had was that someone had been shot in the head that's different. Everyone now knows the guy was pretty much dead lying there but how would the crew know that originally? I assume someone phoned the call in to 911? Did the caller say the guy had agonal respirations? Even if the caller did describe the scene perfectly if the crew was out in the boonies I can't blame them for not believing it. I wouldn't have looked at this as a "am I comfortable dealing with a gun on scene" so much as a "am I comfortable dealing with distraught family members who claim dad just shot him self in the head but maybe his wife actually did it" kind of situation.
 
Suicides used to be treated like homicides under England's common law .

Until the later half of the 20th century, if yo committee suicide in Massachusetts, the Commonwealth could claim your entire estate, turn your wife and kids out, if you committed suicide. That and insurance policies used to cause them to be covered up.
 
mycrofft said:
Until the later half of the 20th century, if yo committee suicide in Massachusetts, the Commonwealth could claim your entire estate, turn your wife and kids out, if you committed suicide.
Click to expand...

Aren't they still technically considered homicides in some states. You'd have a hell of a time prosecuting though.

Sorry was too slow with this comment. Redundant. My bad.
 
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Homicide is not necessarily illegal. Murder, on the other hand. In fact there are numerous organizations where the entire purpose is to commit legal homicide. The so called pointy tip of the sphere.
 
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pointy tip of the sphere
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Me thinks you've been away from geometry for too long my friend. LOL
 
Sphere, spear. Tomato, orange. Same difference.
 
Been there, done that too. Patient shot himself in the head with a small caliber handgun. His breathing was OK in this case. Unfortunately for him, he basically missed his cranial vault and effectively blinded himself.

Follow your gut. Life > evidence. Enter and exit with as little disturbance to the scene as possible. Document as exactly as you can how you found the patient and where. Document how you moved the patient so that the crime scene folks can figure out where everything was. Do not move anything you do not have to.

And remember, you're not the investigator... Document the injuries you find. Your job isn't to determine if the patient attempted suicide or if someone attempted homicide upon that person... that's the job of Law Enforcement.

And homicide is not always a crime. Murder and manslaughter are crimes. Homicide is simply the killing of one person by another...
 
I would have sat back until the cops got there. If it's a GSW to the head, the patient is probably better off dead anyhow so a "slow code" in the name of scene safety is welcomed in my book.

And remember, you're not the investigator... Document the injuries you find. Your job isn't to determine if the patient attempted suicide or if someone attempted homicide upon that person... that's the job of Law Enforcement.
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Actually, it they die, it's the responsibility of the coroner or medical examiner. The cops don't get to make that call. They try to- and nothing pisses them off more than telling them to slow their roll- but it's not their jurisdiction to do so.

Also, rule #1: don't touch or move the body if the patient is obviously dead. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Your friendly neighborhood former deputy coroner
 
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Anytime I hear gun or stabbing or GSW or assult I am staging. Dispatch will already told us to stage before hand.

Just because someone said suicide doesn't mean it is a suicide. Everyone is out to get me :ph34r:
 
usafmedic45 said:
I would have sat back until the cops got there. If it's a GSW to the head, the patient is probably better off dead anyhow so a "slow code" in the name of scene safety is welcomed in my book.



Actually, it they die, it's the responsibility of the coroner or medical examiner. The cops don't get to make that call. They try to- and nothing pisses them off more than telling them to slow their roll- but it's not their jurisdiction to do so.

Also, rule #1: don't touch or move the body if the patient is obviously dead. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Your friendly neighborhood former deputy coroner
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If the patient is obviously dead, I'm going to simply let them be... because there is nothing I can do that is going to benefit anyone. And rule #1 is followed quite nicely when you go in to the scene, determine that the patient is obviously dead and leave.

Oh, if the cause of death is homicide, not suicide, it's not going to be the Coroner/ME's Office that is going to be investigating the case to determine who caused the death and if it is murder or not. That's why there's these LE folks known as Homicide Detectives... They do that. But you knew that already.
 
Oh, if the cause of death is homicide, not suicide, it's not going to be the Coroner/ME's Office that is going to be investigating the case to determine who caused the death and if it is murder or not. That's why there's these LE folks known as Homicide Detectives... They do that. But you knew that already.
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Right, I was just pointing out that the call gets to be made by the coroner or ME. I've ruined many a cop's day by pointing out that what they thought was a homicide was suicide, accident or natural causes.
 
usafmedic45 said:
Right, I was just pointing out that the call gets to be made by the coroner or ME. I've ruined many a cop's day by pointing out that what they thought was a homicide was suicide, accident or natural causes.
Click to expand...
Bummer for them... ;)
 
In this case, I was the call-taker. The situation was witnessed, by the wife and teenage daughter. The daughter was the caller, she adv that the mother and pt came home from the store and the father was visibly upset, walked straight to the bedroom took out his handgun and shot himself in the head. All before the mother was even in the door, and the daughter who was home when the pt walked in, didn’t even have time to say hello to him.
The wife and daughter immediately went to see what happened in the bedroom, and found the pt on the floor, the mother collapsed and the daughter dialed 911.
After getting through the whole address and exactly what happened we went through Pro-QA and started to attempt CPR over the phone and the daughter had to actually pull her hysterical mother off her dad to attempt CPR, and we were able to calm the mother down enough over the phone to get her to assist in CPR.
All information of what happened was relayed to the crews responding and they were told to use their discretion upon staging and the status of LEO and their ETA. The crews decided to stage, and I don’t blame them, to each their own.
Knowing all that info, and if I was on the truck I would have continued in. Had there been less info, or if the pt was found that way or the situation wasn't witnessed, I would stage.
I was just wondering what everyone else would have done given this situation.
 
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