Some EMTs, firefighters want guns on job

[Shishkabob]

Your article over-simplifies and gives false info.


You aren't restricted from using deadly force until deadly force is used against you. In the vast majority of states, you can use deadly force when the same is threatened / used against you, a violent felony is attempted against you, or you have a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury.


Second: An agency hiring a private citizen who uses force, legal or otherwise, has no vicarious responsibility in what that employee does in a defense situation. If someone robs 7-11 and the cashier shoots the robber, the robber cannot place the blame on 7-11 because 7-11 didn't arm the employee.



People over-simplify scene safety by saying you can simply retreat if it's dangerous or you're under attack... there are times that's not possible. If it were always possible, it would never be legally acceptable nor necessary to defend yourself and if you laid a finger on another you'd always be guilty of assault. That's not true. The law in nearly every single state (Illinois the exception) recognizes that you have the right to defend yourself against unlawful force.



It's silly for you to require someone to have the same training as a police officer before they should be armed. It is my Constitutional right to be armed and to protect myself. No mention on having the training of a law enforcement officer. I don't have the job as a LEO, therefor I don't need the training of a LEO. To add on top of that, you people that state "EMS isn't law enforcement", the reason to be able to be armed isn't to enforce laws, but to protect yourself from the lawless. Less than 0.02% of crimes committed in the US are done by permitted concealed carry holders.




Why should I be any less safe at work then I am at home?

 

[medicsb]

I don't think giving EMT guns is the answer. but I do think that EMS is a soft target, and if I was a bad guy, a two person soft target in an isolated area (apartment, park, housing project, driving down the highway, etc) would be who I would go after.

For such a soft target, we seem to be very very very rarely targeted. Though I guess if you ever break bad, we all know to not go near you with an ambulance.

 

[Shishkabob]

I do not think that there is a single place in the US that is dangerous enough to allow arming of EMSers.

So, are you against owning guns to defend yourself in the home? Can you explain to me why it's okay to have a gun in your home, but not in the general public? Why are you in more danger in your house than the general public? If there IS a place that you allow someone to posses a means of protecting themselves, why is that place ok but not another?


Nearly every single mass shooting has taken place in a "gun free zone".

 

[medicsb]

So, are you against owning guns to defend yourself in the home? Can you explain to me why it's okay to have a gun in your home, but not in the general public? Most violent crimes happen in the public.

Nearly every single mass shooting has taken place in a "gun free zone".

I'm not against guns in the home, though I am extremely skeptical that they make a home "safe". I'm not necessarily against people carrying concealed weapons, either, but I'm not convinced they make society safer. But, wait, weren't we taking about EMS?

 

[Shishkabob]

I'm not against guns in the home, though I am extremely skeptical that they make a home "safe". I'm not necessarily against people carrying concealed weapons, either, but I'm not convinced they make society safer. But, wait, weren't we taking about EMS?

So then I'll ask: Why should someone in EMS not be able to carry concealed? Do we instantly get absolved of all dangers when we clock in?


It's been proven through multiple studies that after states enact right to carry laws, violent crimes either stay the same (meaning society doesn't fall apart by armed civilians) or it actually goes down. Not a single state has seen an upswing in violent crime after allowing concealed carry.



Depending on the study you read, between 200,000 and 2.5 million crimes are stopped each year by someone with a legally owned firearm... even though less than 10% of those result in shots actually being fired. That's between 550-6850 crimes A DAY.

 

[DrParasite]

For such a soft target, we seem to be very very very rarely targeted.

and the last time you were assaulted on the job, did you report it? spit at, hit, had someone move in an aggressive manner toward you, or had someone throw something at you, etc. I know I didn't.

And if you really think we are very very very rarely targeted, check out this link: http://dt4ems.com/forums/index.php?board=16.0 It only has 35 pages of EMS personnel who were assaulted, and those were only the ones that made the news!

And I agree with Linus's post. the information is 100% spot on accurate

 

[DesertMedic66]

One of the main issues I see with EMS carrying a gun is that most of the time we are in a closed space with an aggressive patient. In the back of the ambulance is too small of a place to draw a gun. In the patients house you are normally right next to the patient.

If you look at LEO they are always a good distance away from the aggressor when they have their weapon drawn. You don't see them 6 inches to 2 feet away from the aggressor.

I don't see my state allowing EMS to carry guns anytime soon. It's almost impossible to get a CCP in California.

 

[Shishkabob]

One of the main issues I see with EMS carrying a gun is that most of the time we are in a closed space with an aggressive patient. In the back of the ambulance is too small of a place to draw a gun. In the patients house you are normally right next to the patient.

If you look at LEO they are always a good distance away from the aggressor when they have their weapon drawn. You don't see them 6 inches to 2 feet away from the aggressor.

Most defensive shootings happen within 3 yards. You are more likely to have to shoot someone within arms reach than you are at 20 yards. And trust me, you don't "always see" and officer far away when they draw their guns... most of the time the aggressor is well within 10 yards. If the person you shoot is more than 21 feet away and doesn't have a gun themselves, you are going to have trouble defending your action. 21 and closer, if they're a threat, you can shoot.



And concealed means concealed: No one should know that you're carrying, let alone where, until you decide to draw.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Most defensive shootings happen within 3 yards. You are more likely to have to shoot someone within arms reach than you are at 20 yards. And trust me, you don't "always see" and officer far away when they draw their guns... most of the time the aggressor is well within 10 yards. If the person you shoot is more than 21 feet away and doesn't have a gun themselves, you are going to have trouble defending your action. 21 and closer, if they're a threat, you can shoot.



And concealed means concealed: No one should know that you're carrying, let alone where, until you decide to draw.

In EMS how often are you 10 yards or even 3 yards away from a patient when they become aggressive...wait....

How often in EMS (in general) are you 3-10 yards away from the patient?

As for myself the only time I am that far away is when I get on scene with the ambulance and I leave the ER after dropping the patient off. Apart from those 2 times I am normally 2 feet away from the patient at max at any given time. Pulling a gun for self defensive at 2 feet away? Yeah I don't see that often at all even in LEO. At 2 feet away LEO goes hand to hand with the aggressor.

 

[Shishkabob]

You really should start looking up self defense shootings and such. Again, most of the time that firearms are used in non-war applications is below 10 yards. That means contact distance of 1 inch, up to 30 feet. Most rooms aren't 30 feet in length. Most times you're robbed, the person is within arms reach of you.



Are you really advocating being otherwise defenseless if someone is within arms reach of you?

 

[DesertMedic66]

Are you really advocating being otherwise defenseless if someone is within arms reach of you?

When did I say that?

When they are within arms reach, at least IMHO, EMS would be better off with hand to hand defensive (courses that DT4EMS offers) than being armed with a gun.

If EMS was able to carry on duty would they have to take a class on how to avoid being disarmed by a patient? The visual I get in my mind (I'm sure I'm not the only one) is an EMS worker pulling a gun on an aggressor who is within arms reach and then being disarmed.

Imagine that news headline "18 y/o EMT pulls gun on aggressor/patient, gets disarmed and killed".

 

[VFlutter]

Blow gun with haldol darts?

I live in the "most dangerous city" and there are many places I would not go unless I was carrying but I do not feel that translates over to the job. If the scene does not appear "safe" then wait for PD. in an urban environment that should not be a problem with the amount of PD around.

So after you shoot that crazy mofo on bath salts are you going to render him aid? Or let him lay there until you feel he is dead enough to approach safely?

I would not have a problem with allowing EMS to carry tazers. I feel that would be a compromise.

 

[JPINFV]

And if you really think we are very very very rarely targeted, check out this link: http://dt4ems.com/forums/index.php?board=16.0 It only has 35 pages of EMS personnel who were assaulted, and those were only the ones that made the news!

...and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of them, especially the simple assaults and batteries, where lethal force would not and could not be justified, especially when involving a patient with an acute psychiatric disorder. Shooting the dude undergoing an acute psychotic break because he won't get on the gurney isn't going to be justified... period... even if one of the providers does die of a heart attack.

 

[DesertMedic66]

You really should start looking up self defense shootings and such. Again, most of the time that firearms are used in non-war applications is below 10 yards. That means contact distance of 1 inch, up to 30 feet. Most rooms aren't 30 feet in length. Most times you're robbed, the person is within arms reach of you.

The only info I can find online is the NYPD SOP-9. Yes it states that 90% of all shootings occurred 15 feet or less. However if you keep reading the study was done using info on police only shootings from Sept. 1854 to Dec. 1979.

65% of the officers already had their weapon drawn.

70% of the officers didn't aim and only used instinct shooting.

In 1990 the officer hit potential was 19%. In 1992 it was 17%.

All of this is based on officers who are familiar with their weapon, weapon training, defensive training, and all the other training officers have to do (including special ways to aim, hold the weapon, etc).

EMS isn't the police, sheriff, or highway patrol. We won't nearly have the same training as they do. Our stats won't look anywhere near what these are.

I am comfortable around guns and have been shooting my whole life. I have a couple awards from the NRA for shooting. Could I be disarmed? Heck yes... And very easily. Do I feel comfortable with my shooting abilities at a distance? Yes. Do I feel I could hit an aggressor at arms length with my weapon in a holster? No.

 

[Shishkabob]

In 1990 the officer hit potential was 19%. In 1992 it was 17%.

All of this is based on officers who are familiar with their weapon, weapon training, defensive training, and all the other training officers have to do (including special ways to aim, hold the weapon, etc).

You're grossly assuming that cops get any sort of extensive and ongoing training in firearm competencies beyond the academy; on average, they don't. Go ask a group of your local patrol officers, then go ask a group of local CCW carriers, I all but guarantee you that the CCW carriers train more often than the cops do.

EMS isn't the police, sheriff, or highway patrol. We won't nearly have the same training as they do. Our stats won't look anywhere near what these are.

Actually, civilian accuracy is about on par to that of LEOs, and each is about as likely as the other to actually have experience some situation where they had to discharge their firearm against another human.

 

[firetender]

Official Pause

Okay, everybody, this thread is on hold until DT4EMS, the OP chimes in and puts it back on the track of his original intent.

If someone else posts before then the thread gets Closed.

If DT4EMS doesn't post by Sunday, the thread gets Closed.

It's cool your socks time.

 

[Bob67]

Why don't we stop laying off cops. Then we would have enough to respond to dangerous EMS calls along with their normal duties.

 

[JPINFV]

Ok... let's raise taxes then!

 

[Shishkabob]

Ok... let's raise taxes then!

Or stop paying for social services instead?


How about the government gets forced in to living within a budget? No spending more than you take in. Can't afford it, can't buy it, move on.

 

[JPINFV]

Or stop paying for social services instead?


How about the government gets forced in to living within a budget? No spending more than you take in. Can't afford it, can't buy it, move on.

Police services would be included in not buying services that the government can't afford. Additionally, increasing taxes is basically the government getting a raise. Thus taking in more money allowing them to afford it. Of course this is a gross oversimplification of the ramification of taxes in both directions, especially given the amount of debt the Federal Government has.