Some EMTs, firefighters want guns on job

[DT4EMS]

Here is an article that just came out in Dayton Ohio. I was interviewed for it.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/some-fearful-emts-want-guns-for-protection/nR933/

Now, to read more as to "why" I take the stance I do regarding arming of EMS, you can read the recent article Skip Kirkwood and I did in EMSWorld :

Here is the online version:
http://www.emsworld.com/article/107...arUI:p=facebook-like&fb_source=home_multiline

 

[DrParasite]

and of course, the other side of the coin is

http://www.emsworld.com/article/10442064/call-to-arms

and

http://www.emsvillage.com/articles/article.cfm?id=1923

Does a cop carry a gun to protect the public? or does he carry a gun to protect himself FROM the public, or anyone who would cause him harm?

As I have said before, i am not sold on the idea of arming EMTs. However, I do think it's strange that you (as a private citizen) can wear a gun in a holster as you drive to the supermarket, as you sit at your desk at work, and when you take your kids to a doctors appointment, but the moment you step foot on the ambulance, it's seen as something that should be forbidden. It just confuses me that's all.

btw, I liked the article you and skip wrote.

 

[Veneficus]

Kip,

I am glad that there are reasonable voices such as yours involved in this argument. (especially as leaders)

I have some questions, which are really more like statements, not trying to convince, because people who are hell bent on carrying a gun will not be detered by anything I say. But somebody sitting on the fence might give it some thought. (I have given up trying to reason with insanity)

When I was growing up, I remember the local police forces asking for donations to purchase ballistic vests for their officers. They simply did not have the money in the budget.

I see many EMS people claiming they need a gun for protection. (Some argue it is a right, I do not dispute it is a right. I have the right to make an inflammatory movie about religion but that doesn't make it a good idea.)

But why is a gun considered the first choice of protection?

Should EMS responders be demanding things like ballistic vests? Up armored ambulances, etc?

If I suggested EMS providers should provide their own uniforms or EKG monitors they would argue it is the employers' responsibility. Why do they think they need to provide their own firearm for protection?

Isn't that defensive protection as opposed to a missile weapon?

Afterall, the stories I read in these articles look like responders were not in a position to shoot back but still could have been killed.

Life lessons I learned at the FD. The difference between concealment and cover. When approaching a residence always look for when I would find cover. Don't stand in front of windows or doors when knocking, and not to hold a light source in the center of my mass or near my face.

It was what the old guys taught the new guys. Not part of school. Maybe it needs to be. Instead of "scene safe gloves on" BS.

One of my doctor friends I go shooting with showed me a study by the US army that marksmanship had no bearing on survival in combat. It went on to say that those who could quickly and effectively find cover were 60% more likely to survive.

(I like the phrase "taking cover" it sounds so much more heroic than "run and hide.")

It seems to me that those supporting guns as a means of protection are making an almost delusional error in judgement. The gun to them represents the retention of the ability to meet violence with equal or superior violence. This I would not argue as delusional. But this ability to administer violence doesn't protect you from harm.

With the most basic odds ("Great warriors do not fight to win, great warriors win then fight" --Sun Tzu) If you and I were both to face off both draw our guns at the same time and have a good old fasioned TV wild west shootout, there are 3 possible outcomes.

I will get shot and you won't. (In my case not exactly ideal)

You will get shot and I will not. (no offense, my favorite option)

We will both get shot. (At least once)

Now while I think the 3rd option is the most likely, at the very best odds, there is only a 33% chance either of us would not get shot if we both had a gun.

I don't think that is very good odds for protection. I still have a 2/3 chance of getting shot.

I concede the argument that 1/3 chance of escaping harm it is better than nothing. (I won't get into the realities of an actual gun battle and people not being incapacitated on the first shot with various types of weaponds and ammo)

If I am driving or riding in an ambulance and somebody starts firing at me, how does that help? It is not exactly like there is a firing port I can return fire from. (not even a way to identify where the attacker is to shoot at)

If I am engaged in patient contact and that person or somebody else starts firing at me, if by some chance I survive, how does engaging in a gun battle become more beneficial than just getting the hell out of there?

If somebody pulls out a knife or a bat and I gun them down and wind up in prison after being convicted of a jury of people who couldn't get off jury duty, how does winding up in prison and unable to practice medicine benefit me?

No matter what I type or we discuss here, some people just feel that having a gun makes them safe. Sort of like a little metal teddybear. Why not let them?

We will still be discussing line of duty deaths and protecting EMS providers.

We will get to talk about former EMS people who are now in jail because they thought they had a licence to kill.

One or two might even win a Darwin award.

But they might feel safer or better off.

Also, while I have your attention, do you teach throwing objects at would-be attackers as a time winning distraction?

 

[krtemt]

The problem with arming EMTs is that you are going to get some hot headed EMT that is going to use their firearm for something other than self defense.

So if we start carrying firearms are we going to teach weapon retention tactics? What happens if the previously unarmed thug gets ahold of our weapon?

Instead of us carrying guns why not take the time to learn some self defense. There are several different variations out there. Personally I prefer Krav Maga, its an Israeli martial art developed during WW2 to protect the Jews from the Nazis. Plus learning the self defense tactics will give the EMT exercise to help battle the bulge that alot of us seem to be developing.

 

[Bullets]

The problem with arming EMTs is that you are going to get some hot headed EMT that is going to use their firearm for something other than self defense.

So if we start carrying firearms are we going to teach weapon retention tactics? What happens if the previously unarmed thug gets ahold of our weapon?

Prove it...show me a place where EMTs are allowed to carry on duty and the street ran red. In fact show me a place that allows any form of civilian carry that has some ridiculous shooting rate. I am willing to be that you wont find anything. the fact is that we arent going to just hand new hires keys, a uniform and a gun and say have fun. These are people who have obtain proper licensing to posses and carry firearms in their states. If they are willing to expend the time and money to obtain permits they tend to be more responsible with their sidearm.

EMTs who possess valid carry permits in their states should be allowed to continue to carry while at work or not. Ambulance Driver actually posted about this very thing about to occur in Virginia
http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/2012/09/13/virginia-emts-granted-right-to-carry/

 

[krtemt]

You know I apologize for posting without facts to back up what I was posting. Although I still think it would be better if an EMT/medic took self defense classes, I don't see why if they already have their concealed carry license that they can't carry it. What I posted earlier was based on the assumption that they were going to allow open carry while on duty.

 

[DT4EMS]

Again,

If one reads both articles I posted. You would see I am opposed UNTIL the EMSer gets the exact training an officer MUST have to carry a gun ON-DUTY.

I'm sorry.......but an 8-hour concealed class does not meet that level of training.

 

[medicsb]

Robust self-defense training is all that is needed. Arming EMSers is stupid. You want to carry a gun, join the military or the police department.

 

[firetender]

Possessing a gun, regardless the training involved in getting it, adds an element to your consciousness that USING a gun is an option while in the field. Unless you are in a High Danger area, there is no need to impose that consciousness on you while you're doing the work of extending the lives of the fallen.

Access = Use

This is coming from living in the State which has the least amount of gun-related violence, Hawaii. Why? Most probably because we are islands in the middle of nowhere and have a bit more control over what weapons get into the area.

While having no argument with arming medics working in very specific, high-danger areas, I would do nothing to encourage medics to have the choice to carry unless absolutely positively necessary; for all of our protection.

Sorry, but I don't have confidence in the judgment maturity of medics who, in low impact areas are feverish to carry. I don't care if they get trained like a cop.

It's the fever and insistence that bothers me.

 

[JPINFV]

The first time a story is published about an EMT or paramedic drawing on some psychiatric patient is going to be hilarious, if not also sad.

 

[medicdan]

In Israel, its fairly common for ambulance staff to have a weapon somewhere on their body... and I'm not aware of any increased shooting rate. The fact is that there are armed men on nearly every corner (members of the military waiting for busses, etc). Let me look for some data, though.

 

[medicsb]

I do not think that there is a single place in the US that is dangerous enough to allow arming of EMSers.

 

[Veneficus]

I do not think that there is a single place in the US that is dangerous enough to allow arming of EMSers.

I agree.

 

[Veneficus]

I have to ask...

Are EMS providers so inept that they really think that a fire arm should be the first and only solution to protect themselves?

Why are EMS forums crawling with "we want guns" threads but hardly any other ideas on protection are put forth?

 

[Sandog]

EMT's with guns. Preposterous. I can see the headlines now,
Diabetic kills 3, after EMT drops gun. Or maybe, 18 year old EMT kills deranged patient.

Whatever, it is just a bad idea.

 

[bigbaldguy]

I don't see the need for it.

That said the truth is if they do start letting medics carry guns I suspect

A. The training requirement will be a huge PITA that most medics won't want to bother with. (dream on if you think a CHL is going to cut it)

B. Most medics who would be willing to deal with the hassle of the training and annoyance of wearing a gun will probably fail the psych test.

C. Very few outfits are going to want to carry the insurance.

D. The guys that get approved and do the training will get tired of carrying a 3 pound chunk of metal on their belt after about a year. (I did)

As I've said before after 9/11 the commercial pilots all raised hell about getting an armed pilot program. The loudest advocates for the program didn't get approved to carry (luckily in many cases). A good chunk of the guys who did get approved either don't carry anymore because of the hassle or went through the class so they can jump security not because they want to carry a gun.

I think it's a bad idea because once word gets out that medics are armed it puts us at far more of a risk than we were to begin with. The types of confrontations a medic is likely to get into aren't the type of confrontations where a gun does any good. Back of an ambulance? Nope Crazy guy taking a swing at you while you take his blood pressure? Nope Drunk/drugged guy spitting on you? Nope Being chased by aliens or zombies? Duh force fields and undead, nope.

I just don't see the need for it outside of some very very limited circumstances.

Edit: I have had a CHL since the first year they came out in Texas and I'm not anti gun. I just haven't bothered carrying in a decade because you eventually realize its just a big heavy thing that keeps u from tucking your pants in. Not only is it useless but it makes everyone think you're a slacker/slob.

 

[Veneficus]

I still want to know why it is an all or nothing solution.

There must be potential solutions that do not revolve around the argument of gun or no gun.

 

[bigbaldguy]

Note to self. Patent idea of

Star of life holster. (day glo?)

Star of life grips for 44 magnum (only gun most will want to carry)

Design gun that is 20 percent bigger than gun carried by other medics each year with cooler non stick finish. (I'll make a fortune)

And the million dollar idea laryngabayonet with tactical xenon styleto. (pat pending)

 

[mycrofft]

HHAHHAHHAHHHAHAH!!!
I move that EMTIFE limit each year's posts to 30 lines regarding "right to carry".

 

[DrParasite]

18 year old EMT kills deranged patient.

Whatever, it is just a bad idea.

why is this a bad idea? I have seen and heard about cops who did just that. EDP had a machete, PD ordered him to drop it, EDP came at them, and they shot him. was their an investigation? probably. did they act appropriately? based on limited information provided, I would think so. If the deranged patient were to hurt or kill the 18 year old EMT, what would your reaction be?

The reality is having EMTs armed might save some lives, but probably not with an EMT shooting back when shot at. Just like having a cop on a scene with his hand on his holstered sidearm helps remind everyone to behave, having the weapon will act as a deterent. Once you are at the point of needing to either draw or fire a weapon, you should be calling for additional assistance probably 10 minutes ago, and looking for a way to remove yourself from the situation.

I do know there are areas where if you get dispatched to an EDP, you DON'T always get the police on scene before the ambulance. if someone is assaulted, an ambulance is sent, not the police. I was told (back in the day, not as often now) ambulances used to leave shooting and stabbing scenes with the injured just as police were pulling up. I'm not saying it's right, just saying that it happens.

I don't think giving EMT guns is the answer. but I do think that EMS is a soft target, and if I was a bad guy, a two person soft target in an isolated area (apartment, park, housing project, driving down the highway, etc) would be who I would go after.