Skip Kirkwood resigns from NEMSMA

CCCSD

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“Provider” meaning Physician, not EMS. That statement that Trans people are left for dead instead of treated is utter BS.

What a false pushed topic.
 

DesertMedic66

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“Provider” meaning Physician, not EMS. That statement that Trans people are left for dead instead of treated is utter BS.

What a false pushed topic.
Except it’s not.


I work in an area that has a very high population of the LGBTQ+ community and hearing stories of some of the mistreatment that they have faced is absolutely horrible. From being told outright to “GTFO” or being pushed to the bottom of the line and then told the facility is closed to receiving subpar care.

Medicine has many major hurdles that are still occurring including racism and sexism to name a few.
 

E tank

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Left for dead by providers refusing to treat them because they were trans? Bull***t.

Prove it.

People actually buy that BS? If there were 'providers' that would do that, they'd do it to anyone for anything. And that would be crime, not discrimination.

As far as the "study" posted to demonstrate some claim of wide spread discrimination, the only thing it's a 'study' of is bias confirmation error.
 

DrParasite

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View attachment 5326

“another made up woke concern to further the alleged victimhood of a group.”

Read that and tell me that he has not marginalized trans people.
If anything, he was downplaying their concerns. he wasn't saying anyone should target trans people.

I don't agree with his comments, but your comments are accusing him of doing something that isn't supported by the actual evidence. As I said previously:
Hold on... that's not what happened. No one from NEMSA's senior leadership said otherwise. Skip didn't say otherwise. if anything, you can say he wasn't sensitive to their concerns, or downplayed that it was a major issue, but he NEVER advocated for the targetting of trans people.

To say otherwise is a false accusation, a bold face lie, and is a complete misrepresentation of what occurred
 

DrParasite

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Left for dead by providers refusing to treat them because they were trans? Bull***t.

Prove it.
This was one of the only examples I could find during a cursory check:

And this is an accusation from an attorney in a lawsuit:
I don't think it's actually accurate (it's from a lawsuit, and very light on facts other than what the family assumes), but this is the fear among many in the community.

this was another NYC related case (much of it boils down to how you perceive what happened)

some actual research on this topic:

one statement of importance from the actual research:
Researchers also found that misconceptions about EMS care exist in the transgender population just as they exist in the general population. For example, one transgender patient complained about an EMS provider who asked them about their stuffed cats while they were vomiting into a trash can. Certainly, one can imagine that the EMS provider may have just been trying to make friendly conversation, but anxieties in the patient population based on actual incidences of transphobia, like the death of Tyra Hunter, can lead them to perceive other dissatisfactory experiences, like being asked to walk out to the ambulance or not receiving a requested dose of pain medication, as transphobic as well.
So even the researcher realizes that just because something is perceived as transphobic, or is assumed to be transphobic, doesn't mean it actually was. but the perception is there based on at least one historical incident.
 
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Tigger

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Perception matters when dealing with individuals or groups with a history of being marginalized. “You” may not feel you are doing anything wrong, but as healthcare providers we do need to be cognizant of how our actions are perceived. Making a trans person uncomfortable by accident doesn’t let us off the hook. I imagine most providers don’t think they are being offensive, but that’s sort of the point.
 
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ffemt8978

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Perception matters when dealing with individuals or groups with a history of being marginalized. “You” may not fee you are doing anything wrong, but as healthcare providers we do need to be cognizant of how our actions are perceived. Making a trans person uncomfortable by accident doesn’t let us off the hook. I imagine most providers don’t think they are being offensive, but that’s sort of the point.
That's the problem that no one is willing to discuss. If someone needs to be cognizant of how their actions are perceived by a person or group, then they need to be made aware of what that person or group views as offensive or discriminatory. This means that the offended group is not being treated equally or the same as everyone else...they are being treated as different from everyone else because they have special standards that have to be met. That's not equality, that is not even equity...it's forcing everyone else to treat them special and differently.

Is discrimination present in EMS and society in general? Absolutely. Is it as rampant and widespread as advocates shriek? I don't know but I doubt it. Should every group get to determine how everyone else has to treat or interact with them? Not if we want everyone to be equal.
 

Carlos Danger

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“another made up woke concern to further the alleged victimhood of a group.”

Read that and tell me that he has not marginalized trans people.
So.....he essentially said that he doesn't believe that the issue being discussed is as common a problem as it is being portrayed, right?. And that somehow equates to "targeting" and "marginalizing"? Really?

It seems to me that "I don't believe that the mistreatment of LGBTQ folks is a big problem in EMS" is a very different thing than saying "I am totally OK with the mistreatment of LGBTQ folks in EMS". I am simply not on board with the idea that if I don't actively champion for every interest of every minority group that I am automatically a bigot, a fascist, and a racist. But denying that "reality" is itself evidence of my bigotry and fascism and racism, I suppose? Or maybe I'm just not yet fluent in Newspeak.
 

E tank

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A really important distinction needs to be made in conversations like these. There is a big difference between having a living, breathing human being in front of you that possesses dignity just by virtue of being a human being (not what color he is or what sex she says she is) and having a philosophical conversation of particular elements and dynamics of an issue.

The former has no possibility of disagreement without there being someone that is objectively wrong in what they say/believe. The latter, however, has a broad spectrum of possibilities if for no other reasons than the scientific, sociologic and psychologic juries are out and there is no resolution in any of those areas in sight.

There are ideological conclusions to be sure, but conflating an ideologic challenge with denying dignity to someone lying on a stretcher in front of you is at best ignorant and at worst a lie.
 

ffemt8978

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A really important distinction needs to be made in conversations like these. There is a big difference between having a living, breathing human being in front of you that possesses dignity just by virtue of being a human being (not what color he is or what sex she says she is) and having a philosophical conversation of particular elements and dynamics of an issue.

The former has no possibility of disagreement without there being someone that is objectively wrong in what they say/believe. The latter, however, has a broad spectrum of possibilities if for no other reasons than the scientific, sociologic and psychologic juries are out and there is no resolution in any of those areas in sight.

There are ideological conclusions to be sure, but conflating an ideologic challenge with denying dignity to someone lying on a stretcher in front of you is at best ignorant and at worst a lie.
Whose definition of dignity do you use?
 

E tank

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Whose definition of dignity do you use?
Well, that's the rub isn't it? Less than 50 years ago, your question would have been met with a 1000 mile stare, as if you just stepped out of a UFO with one eye in your forehead. Martin Luther King and the American framers used the definition of (human) dignity that was pretty much made universal by the Judeo-Christian tradition. That is, if you're a human being, you're made in the 'image and likeness' of God and as such you had a sovereign, inalienable claim to that dignity.

That there are many many individuals that claim identity in that tradition that have acted in complete contradiction to it isn't a question. It's one reason we're having this discussion. That doesn't change the fact that this is specifically where the idea that treating people with disrespect is bad got global exposure and assent.

Now that this tradition has been pretty much jettisoned by the global culture, you're right, there is no consensus on what human dignity is or how someone qualifies. This is the tremendous danger. Now any group can arbitrarily declare what constitutes human value and what doesn't. If the history of the 20th century is any indicator, that should give anyone the chills...
 

Seirende

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It seems like it’s just basic sense stuff.

I have had to explain to friends the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. There's a woeful lack of understanding in the public at large.
 

mgr22

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I have had to explain to friends the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. There's a woeful lack of understanding in the public at large.
True, but that's not surprising, considering how new that topic is to many of us.

It's going to take me some time to adjust to a different way of thinking about gender. I don't mind -- I just need some patience from those who are already comfortable with the non-binary paradigm.
 

E tank

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I have had to explain to friends the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. There's a woeful lack of understanding in the public at large.
Not gonna apologize for not getting it. By definition these are psychological and therefore subjective constructs that may or may not conform to scientifically verifiable realities and are as variable as there are individuals expressing them.

What I will be is polite and compassionate.
 

Seirende

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Not gonna apologize for not getting it. By definition these are psychological and therefore subjective constructs that may or may not conform to scientifically verifiable realities and are as variable as there are individuals expressing them.

What I will be is polite and compassionate.

We could take this on a very philosophical tangent, but that might be too far outside the scope of this thread
 

Carlos Danger

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Not gonna apologize for not getting it. By definition these are psychological and therefore subjective constructs that may or may not conform to scientifically verifiable realities and are as variable as there are individuals expressing them.

What I will be is polite and compassionate.
This pretty much perfectly sums up my feeling on the whole thing.

That, and being so tired already of seeing others accused of being "intolerant" or "bigots" simply for not understanding or agreeing with these relatively new and subjective realities.
 

GMCmedic

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This pretty much perfectly sums up my feeling on the whole thing.

That, and being so tired already of seeing others accused of being "intolerant" or "bigots" simply for not understanding or agreeing with these relatively new and subjective realities.

And by definition bigotry is subjective and often times those calling someone a bigot are bigots themselves.
 

Tigger

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Some content was removed.
We will engage in discussions here, but we will not tolerate hate speech.
 

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