shake and bake courses

[medichopeful]

You get a Rick Roll and a rimshot.

Oh I see what you did there <_<

 

[JPINFV]

Oh I see what you did there <_<

The great thing is that that post was the last one on that page, so no one will get any warnings until it's too late.

 

[MrBrown]

Aw shucks you guys are too much :lol:

It's great to see Washington move away from its crazy system of skills to the National SOP model.

I say "great' rather judiciously as the NSOP model is quite dissapointing in many aspects; e.g. increasing education and doing anway with the old and out-dated 94 B/85 and 99 I/98 P cirricula but no real increase (and infact, a DECREASE for Adv EMT) in terms of scope of practice.

Now I do know that the model is just that, a model and can be changed by various states or individual medical directors as they see fit however I think its quite sad that it's been nearly 15 years in the making and still doesn't stack up very well when compared to other international systems such as Australia, Canada and New Zealand - although I think ours could be better.

Oh and I just found out our Intensive Care Paramedic degree is 3,600 hours .... take that Dr Mike Copass and Seattle at 3,000, neener neener neener! OK that was kind of immature and inflamatory in nature, sorry Seattle

..... Brown away to get the solumedrol h34r:

 

[Melclin]

Bugger me, I sat down and roughly worked out the total hours of university and clinical experience (clinical placements, internships, clinical experience) that it takes to become a MICA paramedic (that's an EMT-P) these days after reading your post Brown . It's bloody huge.

- 2,500 hours of undergraduate studies (uni contact hours and a conservative estimate of the time spent on the self directed learning exercises, not including exam study/scenario work which is substantial but impossible to measure as an average hour count).
- ~500 hours clinical placements.
- ~ 1 year Internship/Grad year (I estimate it to take 2100 hours assuming normal full time work + a little over time here and there, but that doesn't include service requirements for CPE/study/assessment etc).
- Minimum of two years experience as a qualified Ambulance Paramedic (our version of a basic)(~4200 hours assuming very little overtime)
- MICA Graduate Diploma (1 year - I really have no idea what the contact hours for the grad dip are like but I hear its very intensive. Comparing our requirements and credit points to those of the grad dip, I estimate the actual contact hours to be somewhere around the 800 hr mark with the same in personal study time)(~1500 hours).
-Another year before full qualification and the ability to perform the full extent of the MICA practicum, (namely RSI and cric to my knowledge). RSI requires extra training and approval by the medical over-site people. But we won't include that time.

That means an extremely conservative estimate of the time it takes, assuming you do well, complete everything in the minimum time periods and begin the MICA grad dip at the minimum time from when you first qualify, that still puts the conservative hour count at roughly 11,000 hours before you even become a probationary MICA paramedic. Perhaps 3,500+ of that is university in class book learnin' time. Suck on them apples Seattle.

(Now, all we have to do is stop piss farting about being useless college students and all that fancy book learnin that our universities like to brag about us having might actually count for something )

 

[46Young]

Let's see, from what I can gather from reading several EMS forums is that several medical professions started with tech cert qualifications only. Those in these respective careers were generally like minded in regards to higher education, and were able to organize to cause change in their field. They were afforded the time to advance their education to the degree level. This was naturally on a part time basis, since these were working professionals, and quitting work for several years would be unreasonable with a mortgage, a family to support, the need for medical coverage and such.

The problem at the present is that any newcomers wanting to earn a degree in these fields are required to attend school FT only. Those already established in the field have no problem with this. Why would they? "I got mine!" Making the program accessible to a greater number of people would result in less demand for those in their field and ultimately affect their bottom line.

FT school is most appropriate for young adults living with parents, and to a lesser extent single working professionals without children who have the ability to structure FT work around class time. Remember, young adults have the benefit of being able to use their parent's medical coverage. A working professional would need to drop their coverage if FT school and FT work prove incompatible. PT alternatives ought to be available for those who are unable to attend FT. You say if you want it "just do it"? Life isn't a Nike commercial. You can have the best spouse in the world, but how will that affect them emotionally when you virtually desert them? You'll be like two ships passing in the night. What about your children? How will having an absentee parent affect their emotional and social development? How about your own emotional well being? Your children are only young once. If you miss out, that time not spent with them in irreplaceable.

Anyway, for an EMS AAS degree, I have a simple solution. Take A&P and pharm. Complete the medic tech school. Use the P-card for whatever you want, be it hospital based EMS, third service, private, fire based. Your choice. Now you're working, providing for your family, receiving medical coverage, and in a much better position to complete the degree. That's right, around my way, a P-card gets you 37 credits toward an EMS AAS. Now you can complete the degree, with all assosciated benefits, on your own time, tailored to your own schedule. I don't see this as being any different than what other professions went through back in the day when they went from tech to degree status. Didn't RN's and more recently CRT>RRT do this? (I don't have firsthand knowledge of this, just what I can gather from reading the forums)

If you're young and mostly free of financial obligation, go to school FT. No reason to do otherwise. If you're a working professional with social/financial responsibilities, you have to be a little more creative.

I'm not necessarily against education. However, if the college isn't willing to offer PT options, you gotta do what you gotta do. I, for one, wouldn't take no for an answer if other options are available, provided that's what I really want to do.

 

[VentMedic]

I don't see this as being any different than what other professions went through back in the day when they went from tech to degree status. Didn't RN's and more recently CRT>RRT do this? (I don't have firsthand knowledge of this, just what I can gather from reading the forums)

The reason entry level was changed to a degree in both of those professions is they saw a problem with just having a "tech" with little to no education backing up their skills.

Health care professions now require a degree for entry. No more "okay you can be a tech and get your degree later" stuff because most never went back for their degree. You are an example of that. You are now in your mid 30s and still have not gotten a degree and rely on just a few skills and what little book learning you go from your tech school. Have you ever thought your patients might benefit from someone who know a few of the whys of the skills and meds? Has patient care ever been a thought in your ramblings about union cards and money?

Employers also started expecting degrees from RRTs about 20 years before they were mandatory. The "tech" with just one year of school was okay to give nebulizer treatments on the med-surg floors but that was not sufficient to manage a critical care patient.

As already stated, many of us had financial responsibilites and families when we went to college. There many thousands of students, young and older, doing this everyday throughout the world.

Enough with all the excuses. One should plan for the future and that definitely should include their education. You shouldn't wait until you are TOLD you must have a degree. That union mentality of "make me" is really not appropriate in the medical professions. But then, do you think a Paramedic can be a medical professional?

 

[Melclin]

FT school is most appropriate for young adults living with parents, and to a lesser extent single working professionals without children who have the ability to structure FT work around class time. Remember, young adults have the benefit of being able to use their parent's medical coverage. A working professional would need to drop their coverage if FT school and FT work prove incompatible. PT alternatives ought to be available for those who are unable to attend FT. You say if you want it "just do it"? Life isn't a Nike commercial. You can have the best spouse in the world, but how will that affect them emotionally when you virtually desert them? You'll be like two ships passing in the night. What about your children? How will having an absentee parent affect their emotional and social development? How about your own emotional well being? Your children are only young once. If you miss out, that time not spent with them in irreplaceable.

I go to uni with plenty of people who have changed career direction. Who have kids, or work substantially outside of uni hours to support themselves. Our degree is three years full time. One of my classmates has three children, is the full time carer of her disabled brother and commutes three hours to uni every day with her children. It can be done. Besides at the end of the day the qualifications need to be structured around what is best for the patient, not what is most convenient for those wanting to undertake them. The analogy of med school keeps coming up in these discussions and I feel its valid. Its take a long time to learn all that fancy medical book learnin'. You don't wanna go to college for 8 years? Then you don't get to be a doctor. Tough.

And of course I live in a civilized country so concerns about paying for health care don't tend to stop people from getting an education and since the government pays the fees for the vast majority of university students with no interest loans that you pay back when you earn enough to do so, neither does poverty. Also, government subsidies are available for students who have trouble supporting themselves, especially for qualifications for professions that we need more of.

 

[grich242]

While I can agree that college is more often the better option. I have to admit that I attended a private school, for ems and was sent there by more than one "college" instructor. You need to look at the programs themselves and their requirements, For instance at the time (many years ago) some of the college courses were run by private companies, with plenty of paperwork horror stories of coworkers waiting over a year to test. secondly I was reqiured to take needless classes like 4 credit hours of phys ed. at $120 a credit hour I dont need to attend a gym class. The school I attended was taught by someone with an education degree ( not always true at colleges) and one college even sent students to my class at a much higer rate of tuition. That school was later bought out by a college. Now I will say that most of those programs have come a long way in recent years, but my only regret is not having the credits, especialy because the were given to some classmates who paid higher tuition rates and sat in the same classroom. I would still push for college programs for most students, However to paint all schools with one brush because they are "colleges" is not fair just like anything else.

 

[46Young]

The reason entry level was changed to a degree in both of those professions is they saw a problem with just having a "tech" with little to no education backing up their skills.

Health care professions now require a degree for entry. No more "okay you can be a tech and get your degree later" stuff because most never went back for their degree. You are an example of that. You are now in your mid 30s and still have not gotten a degree and rely on just a few skills and what little book learning you go from your tech school. Have you ever thought your patients might benefit from someone who know a few of the whys of the skills and meds? Has patient care ever been a thought in your ramblings about union cards and money?

Employers also started expecting degrees from RRTs about 20 years before they were mandatory. The "tech" with just one year of school was okay to give nebulizer treatments on the med-surg floors but that was not sufficient to manage a critical care patient.

As already stated, many of us had financial responsibilites and families when we went to college. There many thousands of students, young and older, doing this everyday throughout the world.

Enough with all the excuses. One should plan for the future and that definitely should include their education. You shouldn't wait until you are TOLD you must have a degree. That union mentality of "make me" is really not appropriate in the medical professions. But then, do you think a Paramedic can be a medical professional?

I was in EMS for over 5 years before I went union. I entered the field due to genuine interest. Compensation is always high on the list when considering a career path. The paycheck is how I eat and put a roof over my head. There's nothing wrong with seeking the best compensation for your services.

I've seen no little to no difference in pt care from a degree provider when compared to a tech cert provider in the prehospital arena. Experience in busy systems with high acuity pts seems to make the most difference in my experience.

At least those CRT's giving meds on the med-surg floors were already employed FT and receiving benefits. They're able to complete their degrees while working at their own pace.

Also, what opportunities were available to you aren't available to everyone. We all have unique situations. Not excuses, but real life issues. What would the problem be with an option for earning a degree PT? I don't understand the negatives assosciated with that.

You already know my story. My decisions to defer higher education were strictly financially based. It worked out exceedingly well. We're compensated on par with many holding 4-6 year degrees in the area, plus a generous pension, plus a three year DROP. Cost of living isn't too bad here either. I'm bringing this up again because you keep pointing out that I'm in my 30's and don't yet hold any degrees. I'm compensated more so than if I waited and completed a degree, and I can enjoy the compensation NOW while I knock out a few degrees while I enjoy a safe, secure career. You'll have a hard time convincing me that I've made the wrong choice. In fact, it was a "smarter" decision in my particular case (not generally speaking, but in my situation) to do what I did. And I'm back in school now.

So what if I've waited until my 30's to go back to college? You make it sound like a bad thing. Nothing was lost in the process, in fact we're way better off financially having gone this route and I've had many fun adventures on the job (FT), and generally enjoying life while getting to this point.

It's all about weighing each and every option (schools career paths), each and every variable (opportunity cost, monthly living expenses, family, schedule conflicts, retirement, future trend of job availability, as in do it now and get in or take your time and be shut out) and choosing what's best for you. Everyone's situation is different. These are all valid considerations when talking about a career path after all.

 

[46Young]

I go to uni with plenty of people who have changed career direction. Who have kids, or work substantially outside of uni hours to support themselves. Our degree is three years full time. One of my classmates has three children, is the full time carer of her disabled brother and commutes three hours to uni every day with her children. It can be done. Besides at the end of the day the qualifications need to be structured around what is best for the patient, not what is most convenient for those wanting to undertake them. The analogy of med school keeps coming up in these discussions and I feel its valid. Its take a long time to learn all that fancy medical book learnin'. You don't wanna go to college for 8 years? Then you don't get to be a doctor. Tough.

And of course I live in a civilized country so concerns about paying for health care don't tend to stop people from getting an education and since the government pays the fees for the vast majority of university students with no interest loans that you pay back when you earn enough to do so, neither does poverty. Also, government subsidies are available for students who have trouble supporting themselves, especially for qualifications for professions that we need more of.

We don't enjoy the same subsidies and covered healthcare that your country has. Also, who's watching the children while that lady is going to class? Does the uni provide free healthcare? Over here, healthcare is the responsibility of the parent, and can be prohibitively expensive.

What's wrong with a PT option to make education more available to the masses? What negatives are assosciated with that? Why would that be a bad thing?

 

[46Young]

Vent, since you've attatched a negative connotation to my decision to defer college, consider this:

A family has a baby. The husband is an EMT. The wife is currently unemployed. The EMT salary falls slightly short of covering household expenses. The husband pursues a four year degree, maybe a BSN or something while the wife goes back to work for roughly the same salary as the EMT. The newborn is put into daycare a few days a week at great cost to the family. Loans are taken out for school, and credit cards are run up to cover to monthly deficit in household expenses. Maybe the husband does some per diem work to break even. The husband and wife never see each other, and strangers are raising the child during the day. After four years, there's sizeable debt, and zero savings in deferred comp,thanks to household expenses. The couple's combined salaries barely make ends meet. That would be true if things like car repairs, clothing costs and medical expenses weren't factored in.

There's a better way. The wife stays home with the child while the husband does a 15 month paramedic tech program (this story is about us if you haven't yet figured it out). The couple only goes five thousand in the hole, since the husband kept his FT employment and did some OT when available. This five grand is paid back quickly. The wife goes back to work, since the husband works nights on a family friendly schedule. The father in law works, but he can watch the baby for an hour or towo if the husband is late from work.

The couple is able to save 12k/yr in deferred comp, not including a 403b match for sake of argument. This gains 7% annually, a purposefully conservative number. The couple will have over 36k invested. In another 36 years they'll have $411,000 in deferred comp. This is with an anemic 7% return, and no future contributions whatsoever. Remember, I haven't even factored in the company match. The actual figure would be much higher. That's opportunity cost. The couple also decides to pursue firemedic employment in lieu of pursuing a nursing degree. The benefits and compensation are as stated previously. So, in the same four years, the latter option resulted in zero debt, a retirement investment that will be worth over 400k, and little time lost together as a family. School still is an option, one that the husband is actively engaged in. I forgot to mention that the family was also able to save for a house, something they would have never been able to do in the first scenario. Maybe they'll be ready when they're 50 or something. 70-80k with the BSN, or the same at the FD, with much greater benefits and zero debt or emotional strain to the family. The deferred comp, house savings, and new job with stellar compensation and benefits is called "opportunity cost", the variable that most education advocates conveniently forget or otherwise sidestep. Hey, maybe PT college would have been an option if it existed. A PT course load would allow the husband to work PT to cover expenses, or the wife could work somewhere PT as well, not having to pay for childcare, which would largely defeat the purpose of working in the first place.

I haven't mentioned this as much as I should, but I happen to love my job, both sides of it, and desire to excel. If I had landed a job at a good third service agency (I applied to Lee County EMS at the same time as the others) I would have been equally as happy. Seeking the best compensation for my services has absolutely no bearing on my proficiency and motivation to do well as a provider.

You'll have a most difficult time convincing me that I've made the wrong choices in my particular situation. My desire for the best compensation and deferment of college to that end doesn't make me any less of a prehospital provider. Unless you sat next to me in class and did clinicals alongside me your opinions regarding my training are invalid and naturally inaccurate.

 

[VentMedic]

We don't enjoy the same subsidies and covered healthcare that your country has. Also, who's watching the children while that lady is going to class? Does the uni provide free healthcare? Over here, healthcare is the responsibility of the parent, and can be prohibitively expensive.

You are passing along incorrect information.

There are many colleges as well as employers in the U.S. that provide daycare services. In fact, the kids may even benefit from the students who are seeking a degree in education as their babysitters at the universities. Also, many colleges do offer clinics and student insurance for those attending their school.

Just be a FF and let those who want to advance EMS to the level of medical professional with more education do the Paramedic stuff. It is unfortunate that the FDs will now applaud anyone for getting a degree in Fire Science but continue to view the Paramedic as just an "add on" like a CPR card. As long as the FDs are doing a "knee-jerk" get everyone trained as a Paramedic just to grab funding, EMS will continue to be held to by the standards of the lowest denominator.

 

[MrBrown]

...As long as the FDs are doing a "knee-jerk" get everyone trained as a Paramedic just to grab funding, EMS will continue to be held to by the standards of the lowest denominator.

It all makes sense now

 

[18G]

46young... definitely agree with ya. Not everyone can go to school full-time. Its just not feasible. The ones that are saying "just do it" or forget it are the ones who already have their degrees. So easy for them to say.

As long as you reach the point you want to reach, it doesnt matter what path it takes to get there.

 

[46Young]

You are passing along incorrect information.

There are many colleges as well as employers in the U.S. that provide daycare services. In fact, the kids may even benefit from the students who are seeking a degree in education as their babysitters at the universities. Also, many colleges do offer clinics and student insurance for those attending their school.

Just be a FF and let those who want to advance EMS to the level of medical professional with more education do the Paramedic stuff. It is unfortunate that the FDs will now applaud anyone for getting a degree in Fire Science but continue to view the Paramedic as just an "add on" like a CPR card. As long as the FDs are doing a "knee-jerk" get everyone trained as a Paramedic just to grab funding, EMS will continue to be held to by the standards of the lowest denominator.

My bad on the daycare thing.

Don't try and make my posts into some kind of "firefighter thing". I was a professional EMT first and later a medic without any aspirations of the fire service at the time. My viewpoints regarding opportunity cost and circumventing the FT college process were well in place before I was ever hired by a FD.

Many large depts could care less if you have a fire science degree during the hiring process. The current trend in the fire service, from what I've seen and heard is to have promotional candidates hold degrees to qualify for officer promotions, or at least admin positions. Where I work, an EMS degree, ASN/BSN, RT, PA degrees and such are reimbursed and just as valuable as degrees in business management and fire science. Certain positions, such as an EMS Captain or BC EMS would require a BA in EMS. And no, we're not requiring all our FF's to become medics.

Don't project your gross generalizations about the fire service onto my dept and certainly don't imply that my job performance in EMS is substandard as a result of those same generalizations.

I think I'll hold on to my P-card, sorry to disappoint you. I chose this dept because of the significant amount of attention and resources given to their EMS, among other important things. I chose to switch sides and play for the winning team, where employees are well taken care of. Besides, dropping my medic cert would mean a $20k/yr pay cut and loss of copious OT opportunity. That would mostly defeat the purpose of moving here.

I got the absolute most out of my tech cert investment. I'd be foolish not to take what opportunities are out there. So I didn't put my life on hold for 4 years or more to do it. Cry me a river.

For anyone else with a tech cert listening, you can do what I'm doing. Get your EMS AAS after the fact. It's :censored: simple to do. If standards do rise in the future, you'll be protected. If enough of us do it, maybe salaries will rise or something. It's also only another two years after that for a BA where you'll qualify for an admin position. Then you can be an "I got mine" and demand that everyone after you do it the long way (kidding).

 

[VentMedic]

If only the Paramedic was to join the ranks of other medical professions and be recognized as such we wouldn't be subject to those who want EMS to stay in the dark ages. Those opposed to education simply would not be a Paramedic. Period.

 

[46Young]

If only the Paramedic was to join the ranks of other medical professions and be recognized as such we wouldn't be subject to those who want EMS to stay in the dark ages. Those opposed to education simply would not be a Paramedic. Period.

True enough, but the EMS profession is fragmented, largely transient and poorly organized. As such, the needed reform seems to be a long way off. Given the current state of things, many will still go the most efficient route. If PT school was an option, maybe more would go that route rather than a tech school. If these schools are turning out such an inferior product, then why are they not being shut down? Why are most employers, not only FD's but employers across the board, not even asking where you got your card? I've certainly never been asked where I've gone to medic school. This includes three hospital based EMS agencies, three privates, one third service and one FD.

 

[46Young]

46young... definitely agree with ya. Not everyone can go to school full-time. Its just not feasible. The ones that are saying "just do it" or forget it are the ones who already have their degrees. So easy for them to say.

As long as you reach the point you want to reach, it doesnt matter what path it takes to get there.

Yes, these people are the ones who are referred to as the "I got mine(s)." I'm established, I'm already in, so I don't care how difficult it is for everyone else. Your obligations outside of school don't concern us. You're either in or your out.

 

[46Young]

Would someone out there tell me what's wrong with having a PT option for the degree process? "I did it FT so everyone else should do the same" isn't a valid argument. It isn't valid because each person's situation is different. Too many variables to consider to just say "I went to school FT while working and everyone else should too."

 

[VentMedic]

Yes, these people are the ones who are referred to as the "I got mine(s)." I'm established, I'm already in, so I don't care how difficult it is for everyone else. Your obligations outside of school don't concern us.

Name a health care profession that would allow you entry without a degree?

RN? RT? PT? OT? SLP? MD? PA? NP?

None of those will allow you to enter with just a few hours of training and a tech cert. Even to be an assistant to OT and PT you need a minimum of a two year degree.

I will ask again, do you think the Paramedic is a medical professional?