Scene not safe- why do you still enter?

Alan L Serve

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"Firefighter is shot in chest while performing CPR on victim at Las Vegas shooting"

https://www.ems1.com/ems-heroes/art...rforming-CPR-on-victim-at-Las-Vegas-shooting/

If the scene isn't safe then why were any EMS units entering the scene? Instead of helping they just became more victims and more people who needed help.

I am very interesting why EMS units would head into the scene when it is so obviously unsafe.
 

TransportJockey

Forum Chief
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Sounds like he might have been off duty attending the concert. And also lvfd made great use of rescue task forces .

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VFlutter

Flight Nurse
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It doesn’t specify if he was on or off duty. From the sound of the article he very well could have been a concert goer himself.

Aside from that some people are willing to sacrifice their personal safety to help others. It’s a very personal decision that each person in that situation made, to run or stay and help. Regardless of the arguments for utility and futility of performing CPR during a MCI it is still a heroic act.

If you have to ask why someone would do this then you likely will never understand it.
 

E tank

Caution: Paralyzing Agent
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Not sure anything was really obvious. Doubt there were many there that ever saw anything like that, except combat veterans and it must have still been pretty surprising to them. Why did all those guys all run into 1 and 2 WTC? They were about to collapse. But let 'em know you're available next time so they'll check with you first.
 

CALEMT

The Other Guy/ Paramaybe?
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Kinda piggybacking off of what Chase has said if it were me and I was attending the concert, personally knowing what I know I would get as many people to safety as I possibly can. Would I be preforming CPR in the middle of the venue while shots ring over my head and/or nearby? I can't answer that, it is a heat of the moment decision that one has to make. You can armchair QB all you want after its over but if he were a concertgoer in the venue and the shooter was in a elevated position with automatic weapons I think scene safety goes out the window in that scenario.
 

DesertMedic66

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Everything I have heard said this firefighter was an off-duty concert goer. It is a judgement call and there are stories similar to this from the shooting. There was a family, Mom, Dad, and 2 kids who were at the concert when the shooting started. Mom wanted to and felt she had to stay behind to help while Dad wanted to get his family to safety. Would I stay there and help out? I really don’t know. If I knew the shooter was coming from the hotel then yes I would take cover and treat people from cover while officers handled the threat.

It’s really easy to be a Monday night armchair quarterback and simply say “that was stupid. Why did they do that?” But until you are in that exact situation you have no clue how you will react. Will you run? Will you hide? Will you fight? Will you fall? Will you help? Will you record the incident on your phone? Or will you be the drunk dude holding a beer standing up and flipping the bird to the shooter?

EMS units were already on scene before the shooting started. No way will there be a concert with 22,000 tickets sold and not be staffed with medical providers. If you listen to the radio traffic you will hear officers bringing patients to the medical tents that were still staffed with providers.
 

TransportJockey

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If im a concertgoer im going to do what i can to help as many people as possible get out. Cpr probably not but I kniw the stats for a traumatic arrest. But i will do what needs to get done.

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CALEMT

The Other Guy/ Paramaybe?
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Will you run? Will you hide? Will you fight? Will you fall? Will you help? Will you record the incident on your phone? Or will you be the drunk dude holding a beer standing up and flipping the bird to the shooter?

All the above?

My dad had 3 of his deputies attending the concert (off-duty) who stayed and helped people out and administered first aid. Did they have to? No. Did they get shot? No. They did what they believed was morally right. People tend to forget that this is what we do. Now I'm not advocating that we totally disregard our safety but at what point do we draw the line and say "ok I'm here, this is going down and I'm not going to help people". I can't speak for everyone, but thats not what I'm about. I signed up to do this job to help people and like what others have stated I'm going to do whats necessary and needs to get done.
 

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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^ Pretty much this. I take calculated risks sometimes. Am I going to be hanging out in the beaten zone daring him to shoot me? No, but I'd like to reckon I'd be CLSing somewhere sensible.
 

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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Side note: That guy's answer is the most Fire answer ever. "It's just a gunshot wound, I'll be fine." Someone needs to get him a Thug Lyfe meme and a John Wayne vest.
 

CALEMT

The Other Guy/ Paramaybe?
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Side note: That guy's answer is the most Fire answer ever. "It's just a gunshot wound, I'll be fine." Someone needs to get him a Thug Lyfe meme and a John Wayne vest.

 

NysEms2117

ex-Parole officer/EMT
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everybody else said it, but it's a personal decision. I'm also the kind of guy that says its better to ask for forgiveness then permission. Would i have gone in there, probably, but again who knows there are a ton of factors. I think it is unfair to judge anybody based on their actions there, because short of being SOF in the military nobody has really experienced it before(yes that includes the fancy SWAT guys that helped resolve the issue... **coming from one of them in a different state**). I completely agree with @CALEMT don't try and rambo your way through, but find a safe place bring others there, something logical and smart... Even if i was there as an off duty police officer, i'm not going to start running around trying to fix everything. The folks on duty are in charge of that.

For now instead of looking at everybody that responded under a microscope i suggest we find a solution to this recurring problem so the little suzies can stop getting shot by madmen.

Also alan remember this, change happens by action not by words. Nobody expected an EMT to run straight through the line of fire, but if i talked to my partner and we both agreed that this is what we both wanted to do, and we both decided individually to go in, then thats what i'm going to do.
 

StCEMT

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If you have to ask why someone would do this then you likely will never understand it.
I think this sums it up.

We all have different thresholds for risk. You have yours, the FF had his and we all have ours. Why should he be scrutinized for helping others when we weren't the ones taking the risk?
 

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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But did he wear his eyepro?
 

akflightmedic

Forum Deputy Chief
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Good discussion...regarding "on duty versus off duty"...

The very first sentence states "CALIFORNIA FIREFIGHTER was performing CPR....", now call me crazy and it is a wild hunch, but I think he MIGHT have been Off Duty.
 

TransportJockey

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Good discussion...regarding "on duty versus off duty"...

The very first sentence states "CALIFORNIA FIREFIGHTER was performing CPR....", now call me crazy and it is a wild hunch, but I think he MIGHT have been Off Duty.
You cant prove that!

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DesertMedic66

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Good discussion...regarding "on duty versus off duty"...

The very first sentence states "CALIFORNIA FIREFIGHTER was performing CPR....", now call me crazy and it is a wild hunch, but I think he MIGHT have been Off Duty.
You mean Las Vegas isn’t in California?

And of course it would be a CA firefighter doing CPR on a full arresting during an active MCI..
 

StCEMT

Forum Deputy Chief
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Good discussion...regarding "on duty versus off duty"...

The very first sentence states "CALIFORNIA FIREFIGHTER was performing CPR....", now call me crazy and it is a wild hunch, but I think he MIGHT have been Off Duty.
Negative. On call 4 lyfe.
 
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