Role of EMTs in Ohio executions criticized

[Sasha]

Are you kidding? Do you have children? I do..and I'm a cop. With that said, I promise you...if anyone ever rapes, molests, or otherwise sexually assaults my daughter...you will never see them again. Ever.

Why does everyone always think children or the lack thereof validates or debases your opinion on a subject?

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Are you kidding? Do you have children? I do..and I'm a cop. With that said, I promise you...if anyone ever rapes, molests, or otherwise sexually assaults my daughter...you will never see them again. Ever.

By the way...recidivism (that rate at which criminals reoffend) rates for murderers are among lowest for any crimimals. One, because, often they are locked up, and two, aside from sociopathic serial killers, most people murder out of a single instance of rage, or another isolated incident. By contrast, rapists, molesters and other pussies who prey on children, almost always reoffend if they are allowed to, (read: released).

I like you!!!

I don't have any children... in fact don't want any... but I have a problem with anyone being hurt just because they are weeker or defenseless. That is part of the resaon why I am in public servcie... I NEED to help those that can't help themselves.

Sasha, just a question... not an arguement... just want to know, how would you deal with "people" who force themselves onto women and children?

 

[Shishkabob]

...because the founders of the constitution included the 8th amendment.

And the Supreme Court has come out and stated the lethal injection is neither cruel NOR unusual, let alone cruel AND unusual.

 

[Shishkabob]

The whole world would be blind.

Ghandi... smart man.

We have 4 other senses.

 

[Buzz]

I'm a proponent of the side that "EMTs are hired in hospitals and trained to do other things." I've done more than my fair share of Foleys, and I can guarantee you that it is not in my protocols on the road. They just make it seem like some people who have absolutely no clue what they are doing are just injecting random amounts of random things into somebody with absolutely no guidance or knowledge about it, which I doubt is happening. Granted it's a bit different than a foley, but I'd wager there aren't many medic protocols for euthanasia either.

Has there actually been an issue that occurred because of this, or does this guy have nothing better to use his time on?

And yes, I know, this guy will win because of the wording of the law, unless their EMT-Is are allowed to administer certain other medications.

 

[Jon]

...because the founders of the constitution included the 8th amendment.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

JP... Way back when, burning at the stake was accepted. As were the Stocks.

Anything we due today is tame compared to that!



Also.... I think there are some states where they are training Corrections Officers to do IV access for executions. I've also heard of some places where a MD gets IV access, then goes in another room and the State Corrections folks do the actual execution, then the doc comes back in to declare the person dead.

 

[SauceyEMT]

Why does everyone always think children or the lack thereof validates or debases your opinion on a subject?

It doesn't. Thats not my point. My point is that once I had children, it became readily apparent to me, that anyone who ever brutalizes a defensless, innocent child, should be dealt with swiftly, and permanently. My point about having children, is that once you have your own, it changes your view of many things. I personally feel that we (society) should be using the death penalty at a much quicker pace. Rapists, child molesters, etc. would be at the top of my list. Quickly and efficiently dispatched.

 

[VFFforpeople]

Why does everyone always think children or the lack thereof validates or debases your opinion on a subject?

Ok, so using this point of view, lets replace children with say 46yro F. Now what are your thoughts on it? Or a 23 yro F college student 4.0, never parties has the world going for her walking to her car? Or the 4month old that us the youngest in my county to have that happen to? Part of me thinks you keep that view just to argue and otherwise strike a debate because you can. Which is fine you have that right, if playing both sides against the middle works for you go for it. Children validate alot, one day when (I don't say this to be mean, but pointing out an observation rather) you mature a little more and see what having kids is like, or spending time with them. You will know where the majority of us speak from, and then will have a more respected argument.

 

[VentMedic]

I personally know of no EMT-I (or many Paramedics) that can even do RSI and I have not seen the lethal injection drugs listed within their scope of practice. So yes, I can see where this could be a problem. Since they do not routinely even monitor sedated and paralyzed patients during transports, they would not be the best qualified as specified in may guidelines that have been issued by the courts.

It also depends upon the state the Paramedic is in as to whether their "prehospital" license or cert will allow to administer many if any meds within the walls of a hospital. Thus, they would be considered unlicensed personnel by hospital standards. BTW, these statutes were not written by hospitals or nursing associations but rather by those in EMS because they wanted to be different.

There are usually 3 drugs administered which include a sedative, a paralytic and something to stop the heart like K+.

So the list can include: sodium thiopental, pancuronium, Tubocurarine, succinylcholine chloride and Potassium chloride.

And the Supreme Court has come out and stated the lethal injection is neither cruel NOR unusual, let alone cruel AND unusual.

This is in the courts now and in California they did have to change their lethal injection practices after the Michael Morales lawsuit.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/03/03/state/n172329S60.DTL&feed=rss.news

Michael Morales was scheduled to be executed Feb. 21, but the injection was canceled after the prison could not comply with a federal judge's order for changes in the procedure to ensure Morales would not feel too much pain.


That judge, U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel of San Jose, didn't say whether he would approve of the new method to kill Morales or other prisoners, none of whom are scheduled to be executed. During a brief hearing Friday, he characterized the litigation as now being "a challenge to a protocol the state hopes to implement in the future."


California's chief death penalty prosecutor, Dane Gillette, said in an interview that the changes, made "after consulting experts," would ensure that a prisoner "would not experience wanton or unnecessary pain."

Morales and his attorneys complained in the lawsuit that the prisoner might feel too much pain if the sedative he is given doesn't make him unconscious before a paralyzing agent and the final heart-stopping drugs begin coursing through his veins.

A week before Morales' scheduled execution, Fogel recommended that California employ two anesthesiologists to ensure Morales' unconsciousness.

 

[mycrofft]

I didn't reply because I couldn't find my reply.

Some offenders are going to be dangerous no matter what. Unless you want to just hold them in limbo the rest of their lives, putting other inmates and correctional staff at risk, and wasting money, then the death sentence is correct.
However, I don't think my license or training as EMT or nurse taught me how to kill people on purpose.
They trained and paid people as hangmen and other executioners for a purpose. You can teach a person with a high school education how to drop an IV in and give a push from some Bristojects type device marketed by a chemical company.

It is a violation of licensing and professional ethics for us to kill people unless it is self defense, and executions are not that. if you want to kill people strapped to tables, etc., then go get that job.

 

[Sasha]

Ok, so using this point of view, lets replace children with say 46yro F. Now what are your thoughts on it? Or a 23 yro F college student 4.0, never parties has the world going for her walking to her car? Or the 4month old that us the youngest in my county to have that happen to? Part of me thinks you keep that view just to argue and otherwise strike a debate because you can. Which is fine you have that right, if playing both sides against the middle works for you go for it. Children validate alot, one day when (I don't say this to be mean, but pointing out an observation rather) you mature a little more and see what having kids is like, or spending time with them. You will know where the majority of us speak from, and then will have a more respected argument.

Spending time with kids??? I work in a pediatric clinic, I think i spend more time with children then you probably do.

How am I playing the middle? I don't think rape is a crime that deserves the death penalty. A major difference between a rapist and a murderer is the rapist's victim is still alive. Having children or spending time with children will not change my view. Where do you draw the line, then? How many claims are false claims?? Even with DNA evidence that they had intercourse, how many women claim it was forced because they were mad or embarrased? Duke University, anyone??? So we're going to kill someone because a woman said they forced them to have sex???? What if the woman is lying?

 

[mycrofft]

Ummmm....jury trial?

Sounds like we need a thread on rape, preferably with a professional moderator.

Too many rape cases get swept under the rug. Too many get mishandled once the DA decides to go to court. Just as there are different sorts of murderers, there are different sorts of rapes; the majority of "true" forcible rapes are inflicted upon people the rapist is assured won't fight back like the elderly, the very young, the chemically impaired, and the folks society won't listen to like prostitutes and mental patients.

NOT like "SVU".<_<

 

[medic417]

My only question is how much does this position pay? Perhaps it will be enough to get me off the ambulance. Wow start just a few IV's a year. Push a couple meds and get rich. Of course they can probably find a volunteer that will do it for free thus driving wages down for the rest of us. Then the IAFF will rush in and try and get their piece of the pie. Crap there goes another good job.

 

[reaper]

Some offenders are going to be dangerous no matter what. Unless you want to just hold them in limbo the rest of their lives, putting other inmates and correctional staff at risk, and wasting money, then the death sentence is correct.
However, I don't think my license or training as EMT or nurse taught me how to kill people on purpose.
They trained and paid people as hangmen and other executioners for a purpose. You can teach a person with a high school education how to drop an IV in and give a push from some Bristojects type device marketed by a chemical company.

It is a violation of licensing and professional ethics for us to kill people unless it is self defense, and executions are not that. if you want to kill people strapped to tables, etc., then go get that job.

Don't know how it is in Cali. I have never taken an oath to recieve my license, so no ethical problems there. I have never seen a law stating that we can not work as an executioner in a prision!

 

[mycrofft]

Medic 417 HAHAHAH!!!


"Emergency medicine"...hmm, can't even recombine the letters to spell "kill someone". The basic oath of medicine is the Hyppocratic one, including "do no harm". Different job, different skills, different culture.

 

[JPINFV]

So you'd rather not have medical professionals involved in executions even if it means that the codemned feels more pain than would otherwise be present?

 

[reaper]

"Emergency medicine"...hmm, can't even recombine the letters to spell "kill someone". The basic oath of medicine is the Hyppocratic one, including "do no harm". Different job, different skills, different culture.

But, we do not take the hyppocratic oath, the same way a Dr. does. That is why a lot of states use medics in that position.

 

[SauceyEMT]

I don't think rape is a crime that deserves the death penalty. A major difference between a rapist and a murderer is the rapist's victim is still alive.

I hope you have not been and never become a victim of rape. I'm willing to bet if you took a survey of rape victims, most of their opinions of the death penalty would differ greatly from yours.

And as for the rape victim being alive, many victims live with lifelong emotional, physical, and psychological scars after being raped. Many are never the same, and some, commit suicide.

So do you feel the same about child rapists?

(Note: I know this isnt the topic intended for this thread, but you've got me going now...)

 

[mycrofft]

I never swore at the alter not to gamble all my family's money

...but the logical extension of the sense of the occasion was that it wouldn't be nice.
Do people go into EMT class with the intention of killing other people?

I once thought I could do lethal injections, I still think I could but not as a nurse.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Once you start handing out medical certifications to Firefighters... well, all "do no harm" thoughts in EMS go right out the window... j/k. ^_^

But really, if we are saying that no medical professionals should participate in execution because of an "oath" or dedication to preserving life, then we are left with handing over executions to the electric company. Out of all execution methods, lethal injection is largely regarded as the most humane (despite Californias issues with it). So in order to execute justice in a human fashion we are left with medical professionals playig some role in it, even if it is just IV cath placement.... and even if it is just a guard trained in IV placemenet, it is still medicine partaking in the taking of a life. But, in all honesty, I would rather help end the life of a murder or rapist than "sleep" at night knowing that I would be transporting or pronouncing his/her latest victim the next day. Lesser of 2 evils, and I don't care who does it, as long as we serve justice and the greater good.