medic417
The Truth Provider
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Sadly many then blame God by wrongly saying God needed another angel. People that claim to Worship God really need to read what is in the bible.
Prayer and EMS
- Thread starter sojourner
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Sadly many then blame God by wrongly saying God needed another angel. People that claim to Worship God really need to read what is in the bible.
ExpatMedic0
MS, NRP
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Personaly I think the idea of a big bearded guy up in the sky running things is kind of silly. Sort of like Santa Clause.
But thats just me...
If a patient or the family wants to pray or have me join in, I could care less what religious preference they are, its fine by me. Its not my thing but it does not offend me and I could see how it could help there mental health during the crisis. So long as it does not interfere with patient care.
I applied to an ambulance agency once which required praying! It was ran by adventist.
But thats just me...
If a patient or the family wants to pray or have me join in, I could care less what religious preference they are, its fine by me. Its not my thing but it does not offend me and I could see how it could help there mental health during the crisis. So long as it does not interfere with patient care.
I applied to an ambulance agency once which required praying! It was ran by adventist.
firecoins
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Nobody tells me I am going to hell because I don't believe in fairies. Christianity and Islam both activly recruit people into their religions. Jews don't really recruit but they will take any conversions.
I grew up in the Jewish faith. I always found the concept of a Chrisitan nation to be offensive. The first line of the first amendement explicitly says the government will not have an official religion.
People are free to pray on their own in my ambulance. I do not baptize people into a religion. I do not bring up religion or atheism as its unprofessional.
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rjw225
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If Jesus is a Paramedic, I'll Sign a Refusal
If prayer was a legitimate intervention, why would the faithful need to call EMS in the first place? :glare:
If prayer was a legitimate intervention, why would the faithful need to call EMS in the first place? :glare:
firetender
Community Leader Emeritus
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It is not a matter of if we die. It is only a matter of when. The inevitability of death and the very, very high probability that in 100 years, no one will remember we were even alive means that we must have faith that there is something worth living for now, otherwise, no, I don't think we'd do it.
To live is an act of faith.
To live is an act of faith.
religion is not really my thing
But I think you have to take into consideration how it helps.
If you look at prayer as basically "calling the divine cell phone" and asking for a favor, the results are not going to be immediate intervention or reversal of the situation.
But before looking at how it helps look at what it is. In many Eastern religions and several philosophies both Eastern and Western, a person has the ability to influence their perception. When things go wrong, it is because the person was out of sync. If things go right it was because the person was in sync. (with what depends on the religion/philosophy) but it is largely intrisnsic. When you have a positive outlook on something, be it a job, a relationship, whatever, your results are often more favorable.
Prayer as extrinsic religions (Cristianity, Islam, etc) use it is a method of instilling a positive perspective. (similar to meditation) It is the ritual or the recitation of something that instills a positive outlook. Sort of lke a mental security blanket. But that security is no different from its intrinsic counter parts. Basically it is 2 different ways to achieve the same thing.
I choose intrinisc, some choose extrinsic, it is not a choice of right or wrong.
By understanding exactly what prayer or meditation or whatever (like stubborn will to live or esprit de corps) else is, it is like understanding chemistry before pharmacology. It has an influence. However, even if you don't understand chemistry, it doesn't mean that pharm doesn't work.
That is why you see a lot of "proof positive" results in extrinsic religion. The "i prayed and it got better." They have no idea why, only that the medicine they chose helped the affliction. We don't educate every patient on the pharm we use everyday. (or any day for that matter) All they know is they took the medicine and it helped or didn't. Just like prayer, meditation, sacrificing a goat, or any number of rituals of different ideology.
If praying is what they need to help themselves get better, why would anyone want to take that from a person? I always find it beneficial when a patient is trying to help themselves. (though sometimes it requires a little guidance on their pham therapy
)
When it comes to deep topics, when does life begin? What happens when we die? I don't know, I am cool with not knowing. I'll check it out when I get there. Some people are deathly terrified of what they don't know. Their religion allays their anxiety or insignificance.
Certainly some take religion too far. Which is why it is called extremism. But such extremism takes forms other than religion. Nationality for example. Believing you are the most superior nation is no different from believing you have the most superior religion.
Sometimes society is built on unfounded beliefs. Like a male and a female each contribute 50% of their offspring. Laws are based on it. The science points otherwise, but if we go strictly by that, it would lead to a collapse of culture and society. Both of which are essential for the continuation of mankind.
Whether you are for religion/philosophy or against it. How do you prove you are right? What if you are wrong?
But I think you have to take into consideration how it helps.
If you look at prayer as basically "calling the divine cell phone" and asking for a favor, the results are not going to be immediate intervention or reversal of the situation.
But before looking at how it helps look at what it is. In many Eastern religions and several philosophies both Eastern and Western, a person has the ability to influence their perception. When things go wrong, it is because the person was out of sync. If things go right it was because the person was in sync. (with what depends on the religion/philosophy) but it is largely intrisnsic. When you have a positive outlook on something, be it a job, a relationship, whatever, your results are often more favorable.
Prayer as extrinsic religions (Cristianity, Islam, etc) use it is a method of instilling a positive perspective. (similar to meditation) It is the ritual or the recitation of something that instills a positive outlook. Sort of lke a mental security blanket. But that security is no different from its intrinsic counter parts. Basically it is 2 different ways to achieve the same thing.
I choose intrinisc, some choose extrinsic, it is not a choice of right or wrong.
By understanding exactly what prayer or meditation or whatever (like stubborn will to live or esprit de corps) else is, it is like understanding chemistry before pharmacology. It has an influence. However, even if you don't understand chemistry, it doesn't mean that pharm doesn't work.
That is why you see a lot of "proof positive" results in extrinsic religion. The "i prayed and it got better." They have no idea why, only that the medicine they chose helped the affliction. We don't educate every patient on the pharm we use everyday. (or any day for that matter) All they know is they took the medicine and it helped or didn't. Just like prayer, meditation, sacrificing a goat, or any number of rituals of different ideology.
If praying is what they need to help themselves get better, why would anyone want to take that from a person? I always find it beneficial when a patient is trying to help themselves. (though sometimes it requires a little guidance on their pham therapy
) When it comes to deep topics, when does life begin? What happens when we die? I don't know, I am cool with not knowing. I'll check it out when I get there. Some people are deathly terrified of what they don't know. Their religion allays their anxiety or insignificance.
Certainly some take religion too far. Which is why it is called extremism. But such extremism takes forms other than religion. Nationality for example. Believing you are the most superior nation is no different from believing you have the most superior religion.
Sometimes society is built on unfounded beliefs. Like a male and a female each contribute 50% of their offspring. Laws are based on it. The science points otherwise, but if we go strictly by that, it would lead to a collapse of culture and society. Both of which are essential for the continuation of mankind.
Whether you are for religion/philosophy or against it. How do you prove you are right? What if you are wrong?
RescueYou
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Seems like my patients really start praying once I walk in the door.......
hahahaha agreed
Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, part of what we do is comfort patients and families. In some cases it is the most important thing we do. Would I delay treatment to pray with someone, no, but if we have done all we can medically then we are there to take care of the family. So sure regardless of my beliefs I would pray with a family or a patient, and yes that includes doing my best for followers of any religion, be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.
usafmedic45
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+1. There is no credible evidence it helps, but what is it going to hurt so long as it doesn't get in the way of real interventions?
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EMS out of touch with patient
Throughout my research I found studies repeating the same theme, patients are concerned about religious things during emergent care. They actually want much more interaction about it at that time. One such study is sited below
Take it how you want and do with it what you will, but if you are willing to give sympathetic touch and words, you should also consider prayer. If you are uncomfortable with it, well tubing is not a comfortable thing at times, but you do that. Google Dr. Chauncey Crandell and see what a cardiologist does about and with prayer. Lastly my research identified positive therapeutic results from the placebo effect, which at the very least prayer can be considered. If you are going to stop and pray instead of cardiovert, I see the conflict, but praying while you cardiovert isn't going to kill the patient nor slow down care, but rather bring placebo or divine therapeutic results. Neither can hurt.
http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/Volume_19/issue_4/jang.pdf
I was amazed how much study has been devoted to this topic, also noting more and more medical schools are adding the topic of spirituality in medicine to their lists of offerings.
Throughout my research I found studies repeating the same theme, patients are concerned about religious things during emergent care. They actually want much more interaction about it at that time. One such study is sited below
Take it how you want and do with it what you will, but if you are willing to give sympathetic touch and words, you should also consider prayer. If you are uncomfortable with it, well tubing is not a comfortable thing at times, but you do that. Google Dr. Chauncey Crandell and see what a cardiologist does about and with prayer. Lastly my research identified positive therapeutic results from the placebo effect, which at the very least prayer can be considered. If you are going to stop and pray instead of cardiovert, I see the conflict, but praying while you cardiovert isn't going to kill the patient nor slow down care, but rather bring placebo or divine therapeutic results. Neither can hurt.
http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/Volume_19/issue_4/jang.pdf
I was amazed how much study has been devoted to this topic, also noting more and more medical schools are adding the topic of spirituality in medicine to their lists of offerings.
rjw225
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EMS is a MEDICAL service, not a spiritual service.
I'm sure patients would like 600 thread-count Egyptian cotton stretcher sheets and ice-cream cones during transport, but like religion, these frivolities have absolutely no place in an emergent medical environment.
The assumption is always that the spiritual advice/prayers made available in such situations would be compatible with the spiritual beliefs held by the patient; the existence of hundreds of distinct and mutually exclusive sects within just American Christianity precludes the ability of any even private ambulance company to offer religious services without opening up a Pandora's box of justified litigation.
I'm sure patients would like 600 thread-count Egyptian cotton stretcher sheets and ice-cream cones during transport, but like religion, these frivolities have absolutely no place in an emergent medical environment.
The assumption is always that the spiritual advice/prayers made available in such situations would be compatible with the spiritual beliefs held by the patient; the existence of hundreds of distinct and mutually exclusive sects within just American Christianity precludes the ability of any even private ambulance company to offer religious services without opening up a Pandora's box of justified litigation.
usafmedic45
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That doesn't mean it's a valid research topic. No evidence has been found to support it. Just because special interest groups have convinced (badgered) medical schools and such into including training on it, does not mean it's progress or anything else. It simply means the administrations caved in to special interest groups just as they did with the need for "sensitivity training" and all the other feel good BS that medical schools have been cramming into their curriculums, usually to get funding from individuals or organizations contingent on advancing the beliefs of that person or persons. It amuses me how stupid otherwise really intelligent folks can become when you get into the realm of religion, especially when money gets thrown into the mix.
:roll: Yeah, you go right ahead with that one....I'll be sticking to things that actually work. The sympathetic touch and words option is simply what I have to do to keep my job...you know...."customer service" and all that BS.
Evidence and medical
Yes there is evidence and study on the topic and there are MEDICAL miracles... we talk about but give the credit to NOTHING and/or NO ONE. Could there be a bias... one that is against the patient?
We do non-medical things for the patient we deem medical.
Yes there is evidence and study on the topic and there are MEDICAL miracles... we talk about but give the credit to NOTHING and/or NO ONE. Could there be a bias... one that is against the patient?
We do non-medical things for the patient we deem medical.
rjw225
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There are no medical "miracles"…there are as-yet unexplained physiological anomalies that are only very rarely beneficial to the patient's outcome.
You can't praise a deity for the unexpectedly positive events without likewise attributing blame for the exponentially more frequent negative outcomes.
Is comforting a patient really wrong?
Is it not an aspect of helping a patient?
Like I said, I don't really get into religion, but there are times when no "medical" intervention as we know it is going to help any. It can be at the end of life, or to stop a new parent from passing out while you sew the kid's lac.
Is the alternative to do nothing?
making a patient feel at ease is the mark of a good provider no matter what title or role they have. If you need to make a scientific argument, look at the negative effects of a stress response.
I like to work smarter and not harder. If a patient thinks me bowing my head or saying "amen" will mke them feel better, I don't have to spend any energy or time trying to figure out a way to make them "feel" better. It doesn't mean their pathology goes away. Most people I think would rather feel good then be snowed to th point they feel nothing at all.
I have seen many people at the end of life who were beyond medical aid. The last interactions and smiles can do far more than benzos and opioids for both the sick and the survivors. If prayer helps, why deny them?
Even on the patients who will potentially recover or survive, is the effect of will or belief in the ability to carry on somehow diminished if it comes from an external belief as opposed to an internal?
Is it not an aspect of helping a patient?
Like I said, I don't really get into religion, but there are times when no "medical" intervention as we know it is going to help any. It can be at the end of life, or to stop a new parent from passing out while you sew the kid's lac.
Is the alternative to do nothing?
making a patient feel at ease is the mark of a good provider no matter what title or role they have. If you need to make a scientific argument, look at the negative effects of a stress response.
I like to work smarter and not harder. If a patient thinks me bowing my head or saying "amen" will mke them feel better, I don't have to spend any energy or time trying to figure out a way to make them "feel" better. It doesn't mean their pathology goes away. Most people I think would rather feel good then be snowed to th point they feel nothing at all.
I have seen many people at the end of life who were beyond medical aid. The last interactions and smiles can do far more than benzos and opioids for both the sick and the survivors. If prayer helps, why deny them?
Even on the patients who will potentially recover or survive, is the effect of will or belief in the ability to carry on somehow diminished if it comes from an external belief as opposed to an internal?
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akflightmedic
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Since someone already alluded to counting the hits and ignoring the misses...I will also point out the above quoted section.
This is one of my complaints with the religious.
You are asking for divine intervention because you now have an illness or injury. Why did you have to get it in the first place? Oh wait, I know, to test your faith because not only is the god jealous but he is insecure. He has to keep testing to make sure you stay true.
And when the intervention does not help, oh well it was his will, he has a plan. When something "miraculous" occurs it is WOW see he listens and now we have a new path, our faith held true.
Pretty self centered to have those thoughts as well when compared to the world population in general or even only the christian population.
Good thing we do not do this to our own children here in the real world. Pretty sadistic to continuously test your child's love...
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That is one of the best quotes ever.
rjw225
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In the relatively brief interaction between EMS personnel and patients, kindness and compassion certainly go a long way to make the patient feel more at ease.
Crossing the threshold from expressions of empathy and compassion into the infinitely complex world of religion and religious incompatibility is not something I would risk as a medical professional and not something I would appreciate as a patient.
Most religions are mutually exclusive, with complicated interpretations of human worth, fallibility, and justice. Would you want a Muslim to offer prayers to Allah if you were a Pentecostal adherent? What if you were a patient of faith and your EMT was atheist? Would you want to hear his/her religious views then?
The dangerous extension of allowing religious intrusion into medical professions is the potential for selective application of one's medical knowledge on the basis of religious criteria; i.e. the potential unwillingness of an EMT to perform his/her duty on a patient who is part of any group with whom the EMT's religion disagrees or actively condemns. This is taking shape in the form of "conscience clauses" advocated by religious extremists who assume that when their MVA happens, the responding medic will be a member of their congregation. If they happen to be from a "rival" denomination/sect, the patient could be fatally screwed. All because religion was injected where it never belonged in the first place.
Crossing the threshold from expressions of empathy and compassion into the infinitely complex world of religion and religious incompatibility is not something I would risk as a medical professional and not something I would appreciate as a patient.
Most religions are mutually exclusive, with complicated interpretations of human worth, fallibility, and justice. Would you want a Muslim to offer prayers to Allah if you were a Pentecostal adherent? What if you were a patient of faith and your EMT was atheist? Would you want to hear his/her religious views then?
The dangerous extension of allowing religious intrusion into medical professions is the potential for selective application of one's medical knowledge on the basis of religious criteria; i.e. the potential unwillingness of an EMT to perform his/her duty on a patient who is part of any group with whom the EMT's religion disagrees or actively condemns. This is taking shape in the form of "conscience clauses" advocated by religious extremists who assume that when their MVA happens, the responding medic will be a member of their congregation. If they happen to be from a "rival" denomination/sect, the patient could be fatally screwed. All because religion was injected where it never belonged in the first place.