PHRN transfer to EMT-P in other states?

[Handsome Robb]

We studied the whole continuum of a disease including we initial presentation not just late or chronic. We only converted the basics of trauma but the medical was very comprehensive.

That's what I figured. Trauma care isn't all that complicated in the prehospital setting. Probably something that should be covered more though, we spent 5 weeks on trauma during class.

Do you and your wife have Medic Vs RN debates at the dinner table? I am guessing she wins

They always win, no matter what! It's a pain in the ***.

 

[ffemt8978]

Do you and your wife have Medic Vs RN debates at the dinner table? I am guessing she wins

Wives ALWAYS win the arguments...if she doesn't, it's because she is an ex-wife.

 

[STXmedic]

Do you and your wife have Medic Vs RN debates at the dinner table? I am guessing she wins

It's actually pretty even since we both have our strengths But I'm taking advantage of it while I can, because I'm pretty certain after a year working in the NSICU she's going to be running circles around me... :sad: :lol:

 

[STXmedic]

Wives ALWAYS win the arguments...if she doesn't, it's because she is an ex-wife.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Handsome Robb]

Wives ALWAYS win the arguments...if she doesn't, it's because she is an ex-wife.

I was gonna say I always win arguments with my gf...then I realized she's an ex gf now :rofl:

Like arguing with a tree though, not on par with a ICU nurse

 

[Summit]

Since this thread came up...

There's always a problem when it comes to bridging, and even more so, when it comes to giving straight equilivance. The question is, "How close are the fields?" Just comparing education level and foundation isn't enough. For the nurses, do you think a physician should be able to be hired on to act as a nurse without any additional education or training? After all, a physician is much highly trained and educated than the average nurse. Alternatively, is the practice of medicine and the practice of nursing a significant enough divide that just OTJ training isn't enough?

Uh... what would a physician need to go back to school to learn about nursing? The only things I can think of are nursing philosophy, advocacy, and roles. Everything else would be OJT. Obviously, the example is silly. The only doctors I ever met who did nursing were the foreign docs who figured they could make more money coming to the US and going to an ABSN program.

 

[JPINFV]

Uh... what would a physician need to go back to school to learn about nursing? The only things I can think of are nursing philosophy, advocacy, and roles. Everything else would be OJT. Obviously, the example is silly. The only doctors I ever met who did nursing were the foreign docs who figured they could make more money coming to the US and going to an ABSN program.

I have no idea why a physician would want to be a nurse, but I highly doubt that nurses would just allow a physician to take the NCLEX and become an RN. Even with the drastic disparity of education.

 

[Veneficus]

I can do your job, you can't do mine.

Since this thread came up...

There's always a problem when it comes to bridging, and even more so, when it comes to giving straight equilivance. The question is, "How close are the fields?" Just comparing education level and foundation isn't enough. For the nurses, do you think a physician should be able to be hired on to act as a nurse without any additional education or training? After all, a physician is much highly trained and educated than the average nurse. Alternatively, is the practice of medicine and the practice of nursing a significant enough divide that just OTJ training isn't enough?

Similarly, is the divide between paramedicine and nursing facing a similar divide where a formal bridge course should be required to work in EMS?

Something I have never had to say to a nurse.

I think it depends on your education model. Where I went to school, we had to get signed off on just about every hands on skill imaginable. I actually had a little book I had to get signed.

In fact, 1st year I actually had a clinical called "nursing practice" followed on by a semester the 2nd year of "first aid" which was basically a mini paramedic class with lecture, seminar, lab, and clinicals.

There is quite a difference between a medical degree and a doctor

Some places teach you to function only in their system, some teach you to function anywhere. Depends on your goals I guess.

 

[usalsfyre]

But comparing straight hours is worthless. You can not compare vocational hours to college credit hours.

I think you VASTLY overestimate the quality of all of the "colleges" that have nursing programs. There are RN mills every bit as surely as there are paramedic mills. I'd say there are fewer of them, but I'm not as certain anymore.

 

[usalsfyre]

We studied the whole continuum of a disease including initial presentation not just late or chronic. We only covered the basics of trauma but the medical was very comprehensive.

This is admittedly one of the bigger issues with paramedic school. There is way too much focus on end-stage disease processes and not nearly enough on early detection.

 

[VFlutter]

I think you VASTLY overestimate the quality of all of the "colleges" that have nursing programs. There are RN mills every bit as surely as there are paramedic mills. I'd say there are fewer of them, but I'm not as certain anymore.

I never denied that there are still bad nursing schools out there. At least with nursing programs, BSNs in particular, there are various accrediting agencies that ensure at least some degree of uniformity and quality. But not all schools are accredited.

But none the less you still can not compare total hours. 200 hours of 8th grade level reading is not the same as 200 hours of college (university*) level science classes.

Now many people taking an EMT-B class could pass a college microbiology class?

I used my own education as an example but I will admit I may not be the average. I never went to a community college I did all my prereqs at a state university and then went to nursing school at a nursing college which is affiliated with one of the best hospitals and med schools in the country. Personally, I think my education and clinical experience was top notch. But I know not everyone has that same experience.

*Disclaimer: I have seen some pretty crappy science courses at community colleges.

 

[JPINFV]

Now many people taking an EMT-B class could pass a college microbiology class?

Including all o the pre-meds who are taking an EMT course to pad their application?

 

[Summit]

There are definitely some sketchy nursing schools out there. The thing is, their graduates have a very difficult time getting jobs outside of nursing homes. Also, they tend to be far fewer than the sketchy EMS programs. The nursing mills are few and have a low output. The opposite seems to be true for EMS mills. Nursing programs are accredited academically (regionally for most schools but nationally by some of the sketchy schools), by their state board of nursing, and for the better programs, by national nursing education accrediting agencies (NLNAC for ASN and some BSN, AACN-CCNE for BSN and MSN/DNP). Unlike EMT/Medic mills, the sketchy nursing programs are not pumping out large percentage of the new nurses or shortening the programs. They are producing a fraction of new grads and seem to suffer primarily in the admission GPA standards and lower acuity clinical placements (a result of hospitals preferring non-skietchy programs, which ultimately results in poor employability for grads from sketchy programs).

Interestingly, ACICS is a national academic accrediting agency that is usually is found to be academic accrediting body for the sketchy nursing schools (eg ITT Tech) but is often considered a POSITIVE mark for many paramedic programs!!!

Including all o the pre-meds who are taking an EMT course to pad their application?

How is this outlier example relevant to the general discussion of educaitonal equivelence in depth/rigor between EMS and Nursing education?

 

[Carlos Danger]

Nurses are not all equal to the ED or ICU nurse. In fact, most nurses will never be capable of or desire to operate in those environments. Do not pretend those nurses are the "norm." They are the same exceptional as the up educated paramedic.

Nurses in EMS, like every nurse in every other division of nurses will need job specific training in order to be effective. They do not need to hear A&P, pharm, or any other part of the EMS didactic that they already have superior knowledge in.

Now I know EMS providers don't like to hear this and try to make up all kinds of BS reasons why it is not so. But it is like this. Nursing is an educated profession now. It continues to raise it's own bar. EMS is a vocation trying to keep the bar low. I give you this example to put what you are arguing into perspective.

This is the probably the best summary of the situation that I have every read or heard.

 

[Shishkabob]

Nursing is an educated profession now. It continues to raise it's own bar. EMS is a vocation trying to keep the bar low.

Let's get something straight. Actual EMS providers ARE trying to raise the bar. The IAFF, other fire unions, and firefighters in general, are trying to keep the bar low as to keep recruitment easy so they can go "Hey we can run ambulances! Give us they money!"


Don't put me on the same level as them. We aren't, and never will be, and you of most people should know that.

 

[Carlos Danger]

Don't put me on the same level as them. We aren't, and never will be, and you of most people should know that.

I don't think anyone put YOU are any other individual on any level at all.

The statement was that EMS is a vocation trying to keep the bar low.

And unfortunately, that is quite true.

 

[Shishkabob]

The statement was that EMS is a vocation trying to keep the bar low.

And unfortunately, that is quite true.

Apparently there must be some sort of error on the original reply I posted because I could have SWORN I already stated a response to that. Here, let's try again.



The IAFF, other fire unions, and firefighters in general, are trying to keep the bar low as to keep recruitment easy so they can go "Hey we can run ambulances! Give us they money!"



NOT the whole of EMS.

 

[Wheel]

There are definitely some sketchy nursing schools out there. The thing is, their graduates have a very difficult time getting jobs outside of nursing homes. Also, they tend to be far fewer than the sketchy EMS programs. The nursing mills are few and have a low output. The opposite seems to be true for EMS mills. Nursing programs are accredited academically (regionally for most schools but nationally by some of the sketchy schools), by their state board of nursing, and for the better programs, by national nursing education accrediting agencies (NLNAC for ASN and some BSN, AACN-CCNE for BSN and MSN/DNP). Unlike EMT/Medic mills, the sketchy nursing programs are not pumping out large percentage of the new nurses or shortening the programs. They are producing a fraction of new grads and seem to suffer primarily in the admission GPA standards and lower acuity clinical placements (a result of hospitals preferring non-skietchy programs, which ultimately results in poor employability for grads from sketchy programs).

Interestingly, ACICS is a national academic accrediting agency that is usually is found to be academic accrediting body for the sketchy nursing schools (eg ITT Tech) but is often considered a POSITIVE mark for many paramedic programs!!!




How is this outlier example relevant to the general discussion of educaitonal equivelence in depth/rigor between EMS and Nursing education?

The thing is, even diploma nursing programs (from what I've seen) are still taught by bsn's, while my community college medic program was taught by a 20 year diploma medic. She was great, a very good paramedic and clinical instructor, but lacked any ability to explain even basic physiology, chemistry, algebra, etc. If we want to advance then this isn't acceptable.

 

[Veneficus]

Let's get something straight. Actual EMS providers ARE trying to raise the bar. The IAFF, other fire unions, and firefighters in general, are trying to keep the bar low as to keep recruitment easy so they can go "Hey we can run ambulances! Give us they money!"


Don't put me on the same level as them. We aren't, and never will be, and you of most people should know that.

Linuss, just because there are a handful of providers out there that are more than the minimum doesn't raise the bar or the level of the general population.

You are in an area where it may seem like every provider is something better.

The reality is, there is no national EMS lobby to raise the bar. A majority of the US population is covered by fire service based EMS and it is a bit more complex than "hey give us money."

The fire service is not alone in keeping the bar low. Everyone from EMS education centers to volunteers, to private companies are involved.

What I of all people know is if you are looking for professional respect and a higher bar, US EMS is simply not the place, you must move on.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Linuss, just because there are a handful of providers out there that are more than the minimum doesn't raise the bar or the level of the general population.

You are in an area where it may seem like every provider is something better.

The reality is, there is no national EMS lobby to raise the bar. A majority of the US population is covered by fire service based EMS and it is a bit more complex than "hey give us money."

The fire service is not alone in keeping the bar low. Everyone from EMS education centers to volunteers, to private companies are involved.

What I of all people know is if you are looking for professional respect and a higher bar, US EMS is simply not the place, you must move on.

Which is why Linuss and I are going to start lobbying for increased education standards in EMS, he just doesn't know it yet.

I don't see why EMS CAN'T change, it seems like we don't WANT to change. Like Vene said, we have a minority of providers who are actively trying to better themselves and our chosen career path from a vocation to a profession. However, until that minority turns into the majority the ones who are trying to improve don't have a whole lot of options.

I love EMS. I would love to spend my career as a single-roll EMS provider and eventually move into a supervisory and/or QA/QI roll. Add in rescue and TEMS and I'd be a happy camper. Unfortunately, unless something drastic changes or I get lucky, that doesn't seem like it's going to be an option without driving myself to the brink of insanity.

There has to be a better answer to this problem than "move on". Like I just said, I don't want to move on, I chose this career because I'm passionate about it. I love going to work every day. How many jobs out there allow you to show up, grab 200K plus of gear, then head out into the world and act with near complete autonomy besides going where the radio or CAD terminal tells you? Not many. What's it going to take to change us from a vocation to a profession?